And now with that thing going, let's go check in on A.O. Colter. That's it, it's over then we organized the death squads for the people who wrecked America. You know what do you call people you can't call to? Enemies. And if we want to divide our society into arms, camps, and enmity, all we have to do is keep doing what we're doing. El radical edge of the event has turned into an opportunity for the left to push a racial and radical agenda. The implement in their radical agenda is the only thing they care about. They're bad actors. What they want to do here is ram their radical agenda down your throat. This is great Americans, these are people that want to see great things that they got to. You know, they try and build them like a lot of radical agenda. It's not a radical agenda, it's called the Second Amendment. And I would be welcome to the radical agenda. To show about timeless ideas and news in a day and whatever's on you all mine. 2 1 7 6 8 8 1 4 3 3 but I will ask you to hold your calls. We don't have the phone lines online just yet. I'm going to play a bit of lengthy recording for you. I'm just here to intro that. We'll play the recording and then I'm going to come back take some of your calls at the end of the show. You know, I've been talking about we're bringing a radical agenda stage six to a conclusion pretty soon. What I'm doing right now, it's not the same format that the radical agenda is. And I don't want to debase this work of art. I'm very proud of the radical agenda and you know, the circumstances are such that we're just not able to do it the way that we used to do it. So I'm going to conclude it, but I've been looking for ways to get myself talking other people. You know, one of the things that was great about this show was that we used to have all types of people calling in. And I get to talk to people I didn't necessarily agree with. And sometimes they'd actually bring you know, different perspectives to the show. Callers change my opinions. I mean, a lot of different things have happened on the show. If you've been around since the Sumg Arborge podcast days, you know we've taken some some pretty interesting twists and turns. Guys contact me. You say they've been with me since episode X, Y and Z. And I say, man, it's been a hell of a ride. But we haven't had callers lately and you know, it's just kind of embarrassing if I'm honest with you. And so I'm finding other ways to try to get people to talk to me. And one of the ways that I've been doing this is going out on, well, we've done the OMETV thing. I did somebody online games streaming, but one thing that I have found is a pretty, pretty interesting place to find people who are willing to talk is the GPS based all mail dating app known as Grindr. And so the main portion of the show today that I'm going to play for you is actually, it's a three hour long conversation with a cross-dresser. And it demonstrates, I think, some of what I've been saying about this pretty well, which is that when you get from these people when you talk to them at length, when you get them to open up, it's actually not what you would expect. You expect, depending on who you are, I don't know what you expect, but I certainly expected it to be a handful of left-wing tropes and silly diversity nonsense. And as a matter of fact, it's not what I get, shockingly enough. There's a certain amount of tending towards that in the beginning of the conversation frequently, but press just a little. Asked, hey, look, it's just you and me talking here. Now they understand it's a podcast, you'll hear me disclose this. But get them feeling that way, you know. Nobody's going to know it's you who said it, come on. I'm not going to let the rainbow mafia put a hit on you. They get to talk and they get to tell them the truth is they perceive it to be. And so, you know, I don't think that they get a lot of opportunity to do that, frankly. And some of them are pretty grateful for it. And I've had a whole bunch of these calls. The one that I'm about to play for you is recorded on April 8th. I've got another one published now behind the paywall at Christopher Cantwell.net, which I called blinding lunatic. And this guy was pretty, it was actually pretty funny. It got, it's not what I'm aiming for in the content, but it was really amusing because I ended up, you know, telling the guy to go kill himself basically, called him some names and whatever. But this one that I'm about to play for you happen prior to that. And it was a lot more thoughtful, I think fair to say. And I've had, I've got a couple more of these things that I've been doing this on a pretty regular basis that I go on the app, I, I create an account, I go put it in a, you know, in various different cities. And I get people on the phone, I talk to them. And the results have been surprising for me. I've been really shocked at every single one of these conversations has taken me for a bit of a ride. I'll tell you. I'll play a couple of clips just to preview what I'm talking about from the other calls. I posted these to my telegram. Some of these might be familiar to you. Those of you who follow me on telegram, you guys might have heard some of these. But, oh, I can't play the, I got the telegram thing muted. Hang on a second. I got to play it from somewhere else. Oh, here's one. It's just a very short one. Come on. I appreciate that shit. Because I'm a phone talker also. Just like you said, I, or just like I said, didn't think many people still did that. Well, people would rather fuck a stranger than to have to talk to a stranger. And that blows my mind. I mean, COVID didn't help anything. I think COVID made it worse. Cell phones definitely started the beginning of the end. Hence, I mean, same with the internet. Surprisingly detached. Yeah, all you hear about is how people want to feel connected and a part of something. Well, maybe you should talk to your peers on dorks. And so that was actually, that wasn't a phone call that you can send recorded voice messages in the grinder app. And that was one thing that a guy sent to me because I just said my profile just says, hey, I want to talk on the phone. I'll talk about anything. Just let me record it was one of the profiles that I put up. Sorry, one second. And so he sends me this thing like, yeah, I didn't think people talked on the phone anymore. I said, yeah, you know, we're trying to preserve for the historical record, you know, at time in history when people used to talk. I didn't ultimately end up getting that guy on the phone. But it was still a nice little bit of audio. I'll just put these here. I have these things like scattered around it, you know, because you know, the radical agenda and surreal politics, I have a naming convention for them. And these are a little bit more, these are not quite as well organized. Here's a clip. I'm going to play two clips for you from this one where the guy, this is what I put up behind the, this is what I put behind the paywall at Christopher Cantwell. That net, you know what I'll do for the Odyssey listeners. I will put this up as a subscription content on Odyssey also. Some of you have the Odyssey content subscriptions you don't have them to the surreal politics network. I'll put this up on Odyssey for you guys as well. But here's a clip. Here's one clip from that interview. You text me asking me if I wanted to be a part of this and I did. And so I'm not going to perfectly happy to work with all of your imperfections, buddy. It's the whole tire pull. No, you're not. You're not because you use and didn't read the artist's induction by Robert Greenham. I have a lot of work to do on the power. I read both. I knew I bet you have. And you know where I was? You know where I read him in prison. I understand people like you better than you probably fucking think. Don't disrespect me. I get lifted up. I'll just respect you if I want to be lost. I'll disrespect you to your fucking face. I'm a fucking. I'm a 20-20-pound six-foot-fucking-man. I will tell you. Yeah, I'll tell you and I will go to prison willingly. I'm sure your life is full of violent fantasies like that. But I'm just saying to you that if you and I were naked in a room, you'd do whatever I told you to because you're a fucking inferior subject to me. Okay, so just behave like one and I'll help you. I'm not inferior. I'm actually your inferior. It's a 100% fucking certainty that you're inferior to me and I'm going to help you if you fucking let me. But I don't need help. You certainly do. You're up at three o'clock in the morning on a sex app lying just strangers on the phone. I'm all because, let me ask you a question. Do you love your parents? Let me ask that. That has nothing to do with this conversation. My audience knows plenty about being my parents. That's not the subject of your family. I don't think my mom. We're trying to get to the bottom. Look, here's what we're trying to do. We're going to talk about you and your life. And I'm really interested in doing that. But you can't let the only way that it can make audio content is if I speak and then you do what I say. That's the only way that this works. If you want to just get abused, the audience will pay me to make fun of you. I'll do that. I'll cheat you like shit and I'll get paid to do that. My goals will be accomplished either way or I'll move on to the next fuck. No, it won't be because you only do that. But because shut the fuck up and listen. You're being recorded by the way. Yeah, that's the whole entire fucking point dumbass. I'm going to play this conversation to the priest tomorrow. After my mom's student, go ahead. Go ahead. You called me back, motherfucker. I get the whole time. I get the whole time. I'm writing audio and you're saying that. I'm talking to me. I'm talking to you. I'll talk to you like that, sir. Faggot cock, suck and stupid bottom bitch. You're going to do what I say or I'm just going to treat you badly until you hang up a phone. I have to go to the moral. I don't have time for this. Yes. I have a few lives to go. I can't sleep. Save the people in your life, the fucking trouble and arrange your own. You know, well, you know, that guy was going to give me audio at her table at one fucking where or another and I fucking got it. I'll tell you that. And so that's one clip from the thing. I'm going to play for you one more. And then, uh, and then I'll go on to the longer segment that's a that is the bulk of the show. I'm actually calling me back in the name more of it. Okay. That's what you're that's what all of your decisions have led up to and no doubt it's a synergy of it environment and genetics that in acted upon you to damage you severely. And I'd love to know all about it. I love to help you and I'd love to help people like you. I think it would be a really good decent thing for me to do. And I want to accomplish that goal. But if you can't help me accomplish it, then I'll accomplish the goal of being low. And I'll be mean and I'll make fun of you for the entertainment of people who get off on that shit. And so you have a choice to make stupid fuck. Okay. You can have my talent supplied to your aid and benefit. We do get my pick up now. And now it's a shender. Okay. So which one would you prefer me to do? Would you like me to help you or make your life fucking worse? First and foremost, you can't help me. All your little punk ass can do is ask me little little questions. I actually capable of doing a lot of fucking things. And you should be able to pick up on that because I'm obviously smarter than you. You're a manipulator. You know that I'm smarter than you because you're able to identify that. We have both capable of doing extraordinary things. You're not. You're capable of sitting on the fucking phone and lying to people for no reason. I'm capable of having people pay me to listen to that shit. That makes me better than you. Would you like my Uncle Bob's number? He's an attorney by the way. I think I'm going to call your Uncle Bob at 3 o'clock in the morning. Come on. Oh no, he's here. He can call you. Yeah, sure. Have Bob give me a call, buddy. Yeah, you know, I'll talk to him too. Are you here, see? I want to make sure you. Yeah, because if everybody you know, call this phone number so I can record it and put it on my podcast and laugh at you. Okay, do that. I'll make up dumb fucking voices. Call me three days a week. I'll keep on publishing it. Guys will pay me to do it. It's fine. I don't know what his problem is. I don't know. Look. Why don't you just help me out here, buddy? Like you're trying to be too much. You're like a guy who's like in the audience trying to participate in the show. Okay, it doesn't work that way. You can't participate in the conversation because that's the invitation, right? But you can't control it. You have no power here. No power at all. You try to exercise power over me. You're going to lose 100% of the time because you're at bottom. Why would I try to do that, though? I'm just. I don't know what your motives are, but they're obviously not working. You can wipe some fucking disaster. It's why you're talking to me. I don't know. But if you start telling me the truth, then we'll try to figure it out. But if you're going to lie to me, then I'll just treat you badly. I've been talking to you the truth all night. I just made fun of you. Right? This is all we do. Just be like, yeah, you're a cock-sucking-faggot who takes it up the ass. Whatever. I'll just say stupid things like that. Yeah, I like to jack off to you talking too. I'm jacking up to you. I'm sure you've all had your months surprised me in the slightest bit, buddy. Okay. And if you behave yourself, maybe I'll send you a picture of my cock, when we're done. Okay? No, what fucking will I do what I say? Or you're not going to be rewarded with deck. You understand? So I don't want to see your deck. Thank you, though. I'm sure you do. I don't like pussy. I don't like pussy, honey. You know, like pussy. Yeah, it's the whole entire point of the conversation. Or to match on Grindr. I figured that out a long time ago, buddy. Okay. I do. Well, then why would you want to send me a picture of your rival horse? Well, because you're faggot and you get off on shit like that. So I'm trying to reward you. No, I don't. Yeah. I'm not going to get off on that. You don't get off on dicks. Sex doesn't do nothing for me. Sex does nothing for you. I don't think no. You're up in the reoccal. In the morning on Grindr, talking to me because you don't like sex. I'm up because I have a lot to do tomorrow. I'm trying to. You're up talking, maybe because you're a meth head is what you're doing. And no, you're obviously a man. Oh, fuck, fucking god. Dude, I don't do meth for one. You got me. You're definitely a meth head. Okay. No, sir. You're up all night doing drugs and that's why we end up all day. I have seizures. I can't. Yeah. If you just lost someone very, very close to you, would you be able to just go to sleep, that Dayton? You're not. You're not. You're not. You're not. Who is being into the Grindr app? Okay. That's not what you're doing, right? No, I'm a Grindr because I'm a grown-ass man and I'm a serious person. You're you're you're on Grindr because you're a faggot meth head. That's why. Okay. So like just listen to me. Don't just think I can figure out how you became a faggot meth head. Okay. That's all I want to do. I want to know why your lips are wrapped so tight around my dick. When you started when you started fucking man voluntarily because I mean whatever you died to just shit to you and you did. I don't. But when you when you start doing it voluntarily, where you pitching or catching the person. And so that's your little preview of what's behind the paywall again. I'll put that up in the the Odyssey content subscriptions. You guys will have access to that too. The way that call when it is not what I'm aiming for and the thing like I said, I want. I want honest thoughtful discussions. This guy basically I figured out that he was lying to me in the course of discussion is basically what happened. And I lost my fucking temper with him. And that made for you know, when I think is good, you know, it's it's good member content. Right? That's the that's when things go completely off the rails. It's not suitable for the outward branding, but for you guys who are paying for it, you guys will get access to stuff like that. The public stuff is going to be the more thoughtful discussions like the one that you're about to hear. And this is as I mentioned, I spoke to this guy who is a he's a cross dresser and he's been on Grindr not all that long. Well, why should I talk about it anymore? Let's let him tell you. So as regular listeners are by now where we've had a couple of these phone calls that I've had with users of a GPS based all mail dating app called Grindr and we are about to play for you one of those calls. And I think that this is by far the most engaging of those calls thus far. Now I'll tell you I said that when I recorded this a few days ago, we've had some pretty engaging calls since. And just again, if you stick around until the end, this is a three hour recording, but at the end of this recording, I'll come back on and I'll take some calls. I want to let you know that in a couple of times during the course of this recording, you're going to hear me say, I will edit this out of the recording. And that might sound disreputable since you're hearing it on the recording, but I want to let you know that I discussed it with the man offline. He agreed to leave those portions of the recording in. Very little has been redacted from this recording, but there are portions which we agreed to either beep out or redact. And those portions that we have agreed to, they have been redacted. The other thing that you should know is that this call actually takes place in two parts, which I think is very interesting. After we ended the call, I spoke to the man offline, I thanked him for his time. And then he decided that he had more he wanted to say. And for that reason, you will hear this call end and then you will hear the phone ring and him pick up again. And I must encourage you in the strongest possible terms to stick around to the very end because that second portion of the call was by far the more engaging part. And I think that it does a lot to confirm what I think is the value of this project. The people who purport to be the advocates of gay people, actually are not looking out for their best interests. And they don't represent the things that those people believe. And that is by far the most conspicuous thing that I have noticed in the course of these conversations. And I think that my experience has been that when people get comfortable and they start talking about things as they perceive them to be, that the people who purport to speak for gay people are maligning gay people. And I don't think that's very nice to do. I have been maligned myself, you know. And so, somebody's folks have been very grateful for the opportunity to have that voice. And I think that you're going to hear a lot more of these from me. And they're probably going to be branded separately from the radical agenda. If you've been listening, you know that I said, we're probably going to conclude this program soon. I do not want to turn the radical agenda into something else. I don't want to just keep on calling something the radical agenda when it's not that. Okay. I understand that some people might hear this and say, this is not the show. It's not. I get it. And there's going to be some changes coming real soon. But the radical agenda ceased to be the radical agenda some time ago. And we're going to conclude it gracefully. But this is the project I'm working on now. And I hope that you'll give it due consideration. Thank you. Hello. Hello, yeah. This is we've been speaking on Grindr about the interview on you from my podcast. Yes, sir. It's good to be with you. I do have, like I said, this is not live. The call is currently being recorded. Okay. If there's anything you want to get out of the way now, we'll get it out of the way. And then, you know, we'll, then then we'll start the interview. Is there anything else you wanted to ask me? Sure. I guess how are we going to do you have a way that we should address each other? I mean, if you prefer not to use my name or so I do people do aliases or you say sir or mister or you know, I have gotten by so far just saying just, you know, since it's only the two of us in the conversation, we don't necessarily need to do so. I could say, I've said, if you have any preference between sir, buddy or pal, I'll pick one of those. Yeah, don't call me sir. Not sir. Okay. Oh, well, yeah, you say you're doing the cross-dress of thing. And so do you have, if there's any particular way you'd like to be addressed, I'll honor that. Oh. And you can call me, you can call me anything you want, basically. It's not that important. Sure. You know, if you feel like you need a name, you can use with the understanding that this is an issue and maybe edit it out of the board again. Oh, I agree. Okay. Yeah, I don't have any preferred way you address me either whatever you feel, whatever, stills off your tongue. Okay. And you don't, just so we understand each other, like you're not, you're not going to call the pronoun police on me anything like that, right? Like you're a man at, right? That's the understanding of it. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I am a man I could care the whole pronoun and then just say, okay, like off the record between you and I, like I could really care less about all that stuff. Like I'm not very PC or I don't, I got pretty thick skin and I don't really get offended easily. Well, you really have to try hard. What you just said, you'll be off the record. I will not broadcast that to my audience. I did intend to ask you about that during the course of it. You know, and if you give me a different answer later, I won't correct you. Okay. It's fine. I understand that like the rainbow mafia is dangerous to you people and so. Yeah. Man, people got too much time on their hands, sorry, I'm going to trick you. I hear you. But yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let's get into it then, shall we? Sure. Okay. So our listeners, now we've, we've had a couple of these interviews that I've basically been going on. The GPS based all mail dating app Grindr and speaking to people from there, we've had a couple of pretty interesting conversations with people from that app. And I think that we're about to have another one here. And so the person I'm speaking with, you identify as a cross-dresser on there. Tell me, well, let's start here. How long have you been using Grindr? About two weeks. You've only been using Grindr for two weeks and I presume you've been a cross-dresser longer than that. Yeah, but maybe about a month. Oh, so this is all very recent for you, huh? Yes, absolutely. Are you gay? But well, that's an interesting question. I kind of prefer myself to consider myself bisexual. Okay. I wouldn't necessarily go as far as, you know, I get a little lost in swimming around all the different labels that we've come up with as a community or society or what have you. But I wouldn't go as far as to say I'm pansexual, but I just kind of, my viewpoint is I kind of see people for people regardless of race. Race, sex, or gender, or anything above. Well, I'm going to challenge you a little bit on that. I mean, if you're dressing up as a woman, it seems to be that you are pretty keenly aware of the differences between people, aren't you? Oh, absolutely. I'm just saying that I can appreciate. I don't have necessarily... Hmm. So I can appreciate a black and white photo just as much as I can appreciate a color photo. Or things that I'm still distinguishing the difference between, but I could still appreciate the beauty and what makes that individual unique. And I don't have a necessarily strong bias against that. Does that... Yeah, I don't think... Well, I guess when we're talking about sex, the term bias takes on a different connotation, I guess, right? Because, you know, for most people, they're eliminating half the population from their dating pool off the bat, right? And so, I guess when you're using the term bias, you're using it in that very context, that most people are eliminating half the population from their dating pool, and you're opting not to do that. Yes, correct. Okay. I think that's a fair statement. I think that... And normally, when we talk about bias, you know, depending on who you're talking to, you know, in a lot of context, people understand bias to be a value neutral term. You're just saying that, you know, you're in this direction or another direction. It often takes on a negative connotation. It doesn't sound to me like you're assigning a negative value to people who have that bias, or do you... No, not at all....that is a negative thing. No, not at all. Okay. And so, how... and have you always... Or when did you decide to eliminate this bias from your life? It was... Well, when did I decide to eliminate it or when did I decide to actually bring it to fruition? Because I guess those are two different things. Okay, tell me the answer to both. Put, give me the nuance there. Okay. Okay, sure. So, I've been... generally what most people would regard as a heterostrate male for the majority of my life, I'm divorced. I was married for over 10 years. I have a couple kids. And married just for clarity to a woman. All my previous relationships were with women. I'm kind of considered... what most people would consider like a very masculine man. I don't feel like a macho or like I have anything to prove, but it's just kind of who I am and lately, I suppose. However, let's see, 15 months ago was when I had my first true encounter, sexual encounter with another man. 15 months ago, you had your first sexual encounter with another man. Now, was this something that happened on account of an intentional process on your part, or did this happen out of the blue? It was actually out of the blue. I was not planning on it. I met said person organically, just out and about, and I died out on the town. And he was with two other people. We were out at a barn. We were just all talking. And there was two males and one female. And all of us were just getting along. We kind of all exchanged numbers because just for various platonic reasons, just networking and making friends. I can't really pinpoint it, but when I was driving home, something kind of picked up. There was a little pick in my brain and I said, I wonder if that guy was gay. And that he was hitting on me because he just seemed a little more friendly than the other two. But there wasn't anything obvious. I would have never guessed him anything other than a heterosexual male next Marine and kind of looked the part. And anyway, I was driving home and I go, well, I go, I wonder. And so I texted him and very cautiously so because I didn't want to offend and turns out my intuition was correct. And I said, screw it. And I invited him to come over. And he did. And well, the rest of the history. Okay. So this person who you had to encounter with, it's your understanding that he is gay and that this was not his first encounter. I understand. Okay. That is correct. Okay. And so why don't you tell me what your first impression of that was? Like, how did that go? It was terrible. It was terrible. Yeah. It started off okay. And here I'll believe the juicy details. I said, well, you know, you can come over. I like to maybe get to know you hang out with you. This isn't just because I've been drinking. I'm obviously sober enough to drive home. But this is would be my first time with a man. And I want you to know that. And I told him that, you know, pay the admission for this ride is, you know, you have to wear a condom. And I think a lot of people could see where this is starting to go. But so he was kind of arguing against that. And I said, well, that's just a hard, you know, that's a take it really, but that's a non-negotiable. I don't know you. This is my first time with a man. Sorry, that's just the way it is. Even if it was a woman, I generally have safe sex. So he he reluctantly agreed and, you know, one thing led to another next thing, you know, we're doing our thing. And then he tried to sneak it by me without one. And I caught him. And then it happened a second time. And then it happened the third time. And that's when I, the table's kind of checked. Three strikes are out. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's like, I said, hey, buddy, you know, look, I've been married. I haven't. And then I've been in a long term relationship after that. I said, I haven't used the condom in 15 years. I get it. You don't have to sell me on the fact. This is what I said. And you need to respect my my decision on this. And he didn't. And, um, let's just say I said some choice words. And he kind of left shortly after. Yeah, I imagine that the, I imagine the language could get heated in the course of that. And I'll let you know this is an uncensored production. If you say function as bitch, content's perfectly fine here. I'm not, I'm not going to ask you to intentionally play it up or anything like that. But you're allowed to share those words just letting you know. Okay. And so, um, go ahead. Oh, I was going to say, uh, you know, on a side note, this isn't a jab or anything. I'm just being honest here. But, uh, you know, even though it was my first time. To in my eyes. It was, it was shitty sex anyway. And so I kind of really was over it. I was trying to get it to wrap up. And then it happened a third time and it was just. I don't, I can't recall exactly what I said, but it's basically ended with, uh, and there's the shovel right there. So, um, make your decision. And wait, so wait. So you're saying he's actually inside you. You guys are going and he's taking a thing off. Is this what you're describing? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And that's trying to try to sneak past. I thought he was trying to. Okay. So, so he goes in with the column. He takes the thing off. And you're like, Hey, hey, I know the difference. You better put that fucking thing back on. And then and and he thinks and he thinks he's going to get wise sometime in a course of it. Okay. Yeah. He thought he was going to. I wasn't going to notice him slip one by me and, you know, no. Wow. So yeah. Well, that's really something. And so, uh, you have this experience. It's not a positive one. And you're saying you're describing that the sex itself was not so satisfying. Even aside from the deception. And so, you know, I don't I don't imagine that the distrust created by the first, you know, attempt to deceive you was was, uh, you know, made these actual experience more broadly any better. Um, and so you have this experience. It's not a positive one, but you seem determined to continue anyway. Why? Uh, it was well for one I, you know, I'm not going to, you know, the thing goes, you can't let one apple spoil a whole bunch. And just because the actions of one doesn't mean you're going to have the are going to be the actions of many. Um, also, it was something that. That I had wanted that I had, um, experiment with in other ways, just without mail. So I knew I liked, um, anal stimulation from an early age from my early teenager years. I was going to ask about that because I mean, you see guys, you know, and it's been a topic of some conversation with people that we talked to that there's like, there's people who go on Grindr, they purport to be straight and they're all like, they're all like, yeah, I'm a top. I'm just looking at, you know, basically have somebody take care of you or whatever. You're not in that situation. So you're like, I understand that I'm into the anal thing and I'm looking to be a receiving partner. Absolutely. 100%. So I, I had done that with myself, it was something that I just never really talked about with my friends or anything, you know, until I was married. I did share that with my wife and my wife and I had a very, very active and creative and exciting sex life throughout our marriage. And so, um, she, she was okay with that not that, you know, it did come to a point where I pissed at like, hey, well, what about if we bought another guy and better with us? That's where she kind of drew her line, but, you know, put that to bed. I said, that's fine. That's okay. But we still enjoy ourselves in other ways. Now, so I've got to ask is no way I let it go. Was your wife pegging you? She did a couple times. I mean, I probably count on one hand. Okay. But, you know, she wasn't that good at it. But I mean, come on. You're kind of setting themselves up for disasters. Not like they could feel anything. And don't step to them and all this stuff. I mean, you know, like what, how good can it be? Plus toys? I, for me personally, my opinion on it, they're okay to put in the motion, not so much. It's not so comfortable for me. Gotcha. So that's why I was wanting to, uh, I'm sorry for that noise. You ignore that. Oh, that's okay. That's why I wanted to try the real thing. I was like, well, you know, those don't feel good when you start moving them around. Like I like, if you put it in there, but when you start moving around, that's not so much, you know, plastic, jelly and all this stuff. And I wasn't spending. We had our budget for our sex toys and stuff, but they weren't necessarily on that to replicate a realistic experience for myself. Right. Okay. And so, uh, how long have you been divorced? Three years. Three years. Okay. And the, uh, I'm sorry. I've pardoned my time on you say it was 15 weeks ago that you had this first encounter with the man. Uh, five months ago, two months ago, just over a year. Okay. 15 months ago. Okay. So you're divorced a year and a half before this thing goes on. It's not, you're not leaving your wife for a man. It's, no. Okay. That time on is, is distant sufficiently to avoid causal connection. Absolutely. Okay. And would you say that you're your sexual interest had any role to play in the divorce, or would you say that there were, or were there other clearly defined aspects that caused the end of the marriage? Uh, the latter, uh, very clearly defined the status outside of anything that happened in the bedroom. And so, uh, have you had another encounter with a man since this unpleasant experience? Oh, I've had plenty plenty. If not on gronder, where are you meeting these guys? Um, there was a, uh, there's a similar app. Um, that's a friend turned me on to from back home, uh, because he was married and bisexual as well. His life knew about it. They were out, you know, it was all open between them. They were in the lifestyle. They were swingers. And he was by a couple of years ago. Swingers and he was by and though was she and always had a grand old time. Um, so, uh, he told me about the other app. It's very similar. I don't know if I can name it. What's the other nap? What's the other app? Oh, sure. It's a sniffies. I've heard of that. Um, okay. Yeah. And so like, I think that is that geared towards swingers? Do I understand that correctly? Is that kind of the idea about? No, no. How is it different from grinder? What is it that what is the, what's the, what's the, what's the get? What why is sniffies pop? Sure. The, well, I don't know. I'm trying to figure this shit out myself. I guess. But for me, it was the one I knew of. And I was looking for a place because Ryleb is somewhat small townish. Um, at least the area of the city that I live in. And so I was looking for something that was, um, you know, I could be more anonymous with because I noticed I had seen grinder, but I've never had it really tested before. And it was just kind of like a, it was like a Tinder for a gay man is the way I viewed it. Okay. So there's face pictures. There's, you know, identity. Now some, not all, but it was, that was a common thing. Now with sniffies, it was a lot more anonymous. You could easily anonymously not put in any information. You don't even have to put in an email and you could go on there and create a quick profile and look around. Now also it's similar to the way grinder works is it is geolocation based, but you're actually looking at a physical map. So similar to like Google maps. That's the main homepage, if you will. So it's not tiles of headshots or whatever pictures the users choose to upload. But it's a map with pins of their primary account photo and they show where they are in relation to you. That's interesting. You know, I recently had some commentary about grinder that, you know, it's the geolocation features of it are kind of like they can be viewed as a privacy concern, right? But, you know, if you just know the distance and you're not necessarily sure of the direction, one has to actually engage in a bit of, you know, mathematics and some, and some chicaneery to figure out where somebody legitimately is. You're talking about a situation where somebody's just on a map and it just eliminates all the guesswork, I guess. Well, for the most part, yes, and that was a concern mine, but so I was, you know, anonymous for a long time on there. But if you, of course, you know, you have a free version of something and you have a paid version. So with paid versions, things like you could go into like a travel mode. So even if you're over here, you could make it look like you are 15 miles in the opposite direction. And that's where your pin shows up or not at all. And you're just, I believe grinder does that. I don't know if you're paid for grinder, but to where you could be anonymous in your location as well. Okay. Yeah. Grindr, I know that for the, I broke down and bought the extra thing. I don't know if they do it with the unlimited. But I know with extra you can't like they'll actually they'll they'll try to stop you if you use like a GPS spoofing app, even if you're paying for the extra plan. It's like it doesn't permit you to do that. But I think with extra I know you could do what they call explore searches. I don't know. I'm sorry with the limited. I know you could you can go in other areas, but I don't know if you can appear to be there in any case. But so with sniffies, you can change your location if you're paying for the services is the gimmick that they have there. It's one of the services that you pay for that makes sense. That's that's one of the features. Okay. And so, so not long after you had this first encounter with this guy, you decide to go on sniffies is that. Yeah, you know, I was sitting here sketching my head. I was like, well, what exactly was my timeline here. But yeah, I went on there because I heard about it from a good friend of mine and. But this is all like a whole new world to me. And so I was somewhat fascinated, but I said, well, okay, well, maybe I could find something I could actually. Oh, you mean I don't have to just go out to a bar and wonder if a guy's hitting on me or not to try and, you know, state my curiosity and. You know, still not show my face until it was appealing to me. I said, well, that's good. Then shot. And it took a few. The next few encounters were. And mediocre, not really what, you know, I didn't know what to expect really. I didn't know how to behave or actor, you know, where I grew up, I grew up in a big city. And so I had a lot of friends that were getting such and been to gay bars and such, but never really go into the community, if you will. So there's a lot of little nuances that I was definitely learning and having to pick up on. So there was a little bit of nervousness and apprehension, but. I think it was, I want to say it was about the. The fifth guy I was with finally it was. It was just a great experience. I couldn't have asked for anything better and it was just ideal and. I was going to set that apart. You know, so. It was the interaction. It was it was him and his personality. And I had actually met with him before we even did anything because nippy. And I was like, well, let's be real about it. It's just, you know, it's for sex. The guys are very direct into the point and I learned that very quick. Much more so than in the heterodating world. And there's not a lot of dance and beating around the bush and all this stuff like that. Just come out and tell you explicitly exactly what. Is on their mind or what they care to. Participate in right. So. He was very again, he was someone that he wasn't flamboyant. He didn't. I could be eating dinner next to him. Could have been co worker. I probably never would have guessed his sexual preference. Anything other than hero. I happen to be in his neck of the woods. We had talked online for a little bit and I went over there. He said, hey, anytime you're over in the area, if you want to stop by for a beer, you know, just let me know. And sure enough, I should have it. I did. And we did. We sat there and we talked for about a good hour, hour and a half. And we just had a lot of common ground. Not that either one of us was looking for a relationship or a boyfriend or anything, but we just. It was like kind of ad water and instant friends sort of they were we both just got along. We clicked well. And so then I left and he said, okay, and then. Two, three weeks later, you know, we both are schedules. Aligned and. That we weren't so there was no it was my first encounter where I'd actually met someone and kind of got to know them a little bit and they got to know me. And so there was no. There was any nervousness. It was I was much more at ease, I guess, as well. So that was it. That was kind of a big portion of it. Not that I was looking for necessarily a connection with someone, but it kind of calmed my. App retention about still being on this new venture that was. Not something that necessarily goes out from the rooftops when you're finding out when you're a middle age man. Right. And you describe yourself as a middle age man. I don't the goal of here is not to identify you, but if you care to give any more specific information about your age, that's interesting. Sure. Yeah, I'm. Currently, I am. I'm. I am. I'll be 47 this year. Okay. Well, there you go. And so you're 47 years old and within within the last two years, all this stuff starts happening. So the guy that you had this positive experience with, would you say what number was that encounter if you want to give me a rough estimate? I mean, it's the it's the fifth. Okay. And have you seen him more than once? Have you have you gone back for more? A couple of times I have ran into him just randomly actually or through someone else I had met was one of his friends. So it's kind of one of those. I guess in this case, a one or two degrees of connection, I suppose. And so we have had sex a couple times since I believe twice since then. And he just thought it was a great guy ran randomly a run into him and it was both of us were just like, hey, hey, that's like told my friend. And I still tell stories about you. I go because you. You know, so I kind of inflate as ego a little bit, but no, but I would like him to know that, hey, you know, you. Maybe feel at ease and comfortable. I didn't feel threatened or scared or worried or anything like that. But on our first encounter as well, he made it very clear that, hey, you know, we could have the best time right now, but, you know, don't take a personal if I don't see you again. You know, like I just he's like, you know, here I'm there. I'm not looking for anything. He was divorced as well, but from a man. We had we had a lot of common ground there. We both had some less than ideal. X partners, I guess. Right. So we have a common ground in that, I guess. Since you since you started having encounters with men, have you had liaisons with women? I have. And to a couple of different capacities. One, see here, I'm a very personal. Let me practice with this is that I'm a very kind of. I like to think of myself as a very sex positive person, a very sexful person. Like I'm trying to. I don't feel that we should have a caboo so much as we have around it as society. It's kind of like the. You know, in that book came out everybody poops. You know, like, hey, yeah, it happens. You know, this is part of life. We shouldn't be afraid to talk about it. You know, and we shouldn't be. Because it's. I feel that there's a. Big my or taboo around it to where you know, kind of whoosh has your own. Talk about a round of pants or something. It's not something. Not dinner table talk for sure, but regardless. People are very apprehensive because it is an intimate and personal experience for everyone. However. I think there. And I don't have a lot of. So I'm just going to let I don't want to interrupt your thought, but I just you mentioned to me when we talked on the on the app that. You sometimes have some cell phone signal problems and I end while you were trying to find your words, the audio was cutting out. And so I don't know if there's anything you could do to improve on that. I just want to let you know. Probably stop pacing. I'll sit in one spot. I don't understand. I know that phenomenon. Yeah. So I guess what I'm getting to is I've been. After my divorce. I was. I mean my wife had a very active sex life. And I'm not trying to sound arrogant or anything, but I we both did things where once we started having kids and we weren't going out anymore. Well, that's what we did for entertainment most of the time. And you know, you do things enough and you do it with one person that you're open with and could talk through things. Yeah. Next thing you know, you got a PhD in the bedroom. And so I became. I brought my horizon. So let's say I was I was involved in a lot of three since. And such with other couples. I was with women in that capacity. Sometimes the men were bisexual. Sometimes they were not. Sometimes they were just. Maybe but don't push it. So what some people call like by curious or heterosexual. I was with with them in that degree. And then I also dated a woman. I was part of a polyamorous ethically non monogamous relationship with a woman as well. But that is kind of interesting. So there was. She was always been a sex worker. She had been sex industry for. In varying degrees. Stripper escort, burlesque dancer, dominant tricks. You know, you name it. There was always something that she was just in that industry, I suppose. And she was. If you ask me, I would I would label her more. Gay and straight. She had a girlfriend. She was. She had a child. She was divorced from a man, but she was remarried to another man. But she also had a girlfriend. And. She had a. A sub who lived with her, but it was strictly a. Dominatrix sub relationship. It was sexual. Meaning there was no penetration or intercourse between the two of them. So she's got. She's got the girlfriend and she's got a male submissive who's basically. And he. In some way, get some pleasure from being dominated. She gets all fun on. On dominating him. Okay. And he lives with. And he lives with correct. And he lives with her and her husband. And. And then she had a girlfriend. And because she was always. The dominant one. I know he's the relationships. She found me. And I was basically like her top. Like I was her dog. So like I was. That was kind of my role in the relationship. And. We dated for a good. Probably six months or so. But she knew we were very, very open. That's kind of how we hit it off. We met at a. Just a random party that was complete chance. And. She was kind of the. Female version of. And. And. And then. My. Myself as far as. When it came in regard to. Sex and experience and knowledge and. What I'm searching for, I guess. Mindset. If you will. Just as far as being very open and honest and direct. And this is what it is. I knew that you know I was with that. I mean there was times where I was like oh my god. I was like hey. I go come over. I was like why. And I was like I have to get to this guy coming over. He's got a really big dick. And I need you. I need a cheerleader. And so she came over and we ended up. She's like well, are you going to share him? I was like well sure. I go if you like girls. I go all ask him. I go you know, sure enough. I think he was just kind of more exploring his. He was definitely more. He shouldn't have heard that me. Even though the first contact was me and she was more of the surprise that showed up. So I think he was kind of getting his feet wet. So speak with men as well. So it wasn't as glorious as it could have been. But you know, I'll be washed away mad. But we're like little. Pretty one better. But so. So yeah, so. Have I strictly she was the only girl that I actually or woman rather that I had a blonde relationship with and not just a friends of benefits or a casual sex situation. Okay, I think that that makes sense. And so you know, it's been my observation and conversations that people sort of have a tendency to fall one way or the other. Right? That there's. It's it's. I've observed that guys who are. Start off by they start messing around with men and then they either decide it's not for them or they or they decide that this is what they have. You know that that's their thing that they're into guys. Do you think that have you observed the same thing in your conversations with other people. As far as about other people or about myself. It sounds to be like you describe yourself as having. Interesting both and I'm not asking if I'm not trying to get you to revise that I'm asking if you've noticed that elsewhere. And if you want to draw some some contrast between your experience and theirs if you can. So I think sure. In my experience what I've noticed. And again, this is obviously subjective, but. Is that. People do tend to lean towards one of the other. I know when you came in I forget the term I have a few friends that. They were like a badge honor like they had a cesarean. They're their mom was a C-section delivery. They've never been with a woman. Oh the platinum gaze you're talking about. Yeah. So. You know there's and there's a lot of men who are. They're unsure. I think they're. I don't know because I don't want to pry you know I don't it's kind of like asking you know medical questions about people. I know something's going on and I'll let you tell me what you want to tell me but I'm not going to push the matter. But I think there's more men that are interested in other men than they care to realize but they're more. Embarrassed because of you know social stigma or a taboo if you will or don't want to admit it because you know they need to be. You know they're married and they're this and that. So where that domino where where the cookie troubles for them or where that lies in the end I don't know but I do think they. I'll say this I have noticed even in myself that there is a difference between sex and relationships as far as preference to and I have noticed that there are a lot of men. That they like gay sex but they don't necessarily like but they're not gay if that makes any kind of sense. It makes plenty of sense I understand what you're saying that they're like they'll go and they'll basically they'll have sex with men but they're not trying to get emotionally entangled with them. Whereas with women they they are pursuing the entire romantic experience. It's yeah it's it's not emotional for it's purely sexual for some men and there's no emotional ties whatsoever. But and I don't think a lot of men I've seen a lot of men in different phases of that like figuring that out for themselves like okay where am I with that you know and sometimes it gets pointed out to them and you know and now once they have that epiphany or what happens after that. I don't I don't know because I wasn't dating them for any long period of time. But I do generally see there is a preference. I I see more of the flexibility between verse people. People who gay men who prefer to top or bottom but even so even with that true verse people where they're actually. Truly enjoying. Topping or being bottom equally is. Not necessarily what comes out of their mouth there's usually a they usually tend to lean towards one way or the other yeah there's a tendency towards top or bottom and I mean they people will. Describe themselves as you know generally speaking people describe themselves as leaning one way or the other and I and I will do the other thing right like I you know. I will bottom I will top but generally speaking together they have no they have no order of operations no preference I should say between one of the other is not the that's not the prevailing norm. Right right and I found some you know a few that I was like well yeah you maybe because. That are probably pretty close but you know who knows I don't keep track of there right I don't keep a ticker on them. But I suppose that it would be my assumption you could correct me if I'm wrong I imagine that most of the men that you're coming into contact with are advertising advertising themselves as tops. Yes right yes and that's just my preference and you know I've kind of I've had that conversation with a few different people actually and I said well they said well why do you think because you know you're before all this like I was kind of like a I was a dumb top for all the females that I was with like I was very I mean it to a lot of king step as well and I was always the one run in the show very assertive you know bondage BDSM I think that nature and it was just kind of who I you know it was just kind of who I was I was just kind of. The person that could just walk into space and people don't know what to do and I can start giving direction not that I like to boss people around but it was just I could I see I see the I see the end game and giving the direction on how to get there you know and I don't know if it's just pure luck or there was something subconsciously that I didn't realize before but that's always the female that I had any sort of long term relationship with always. I was in a relationship with always seem to fit that nature even though I didn't I wasn't necessarily. Deeming myself as a you know male dominatrix or something and you know pitching that I'm looking for a sub or anything like that so it's that's made of me but I wasn't proactively using that mindset when looking for a girlfriend so to speak. You found that the dynamics of sexual dimorphism landed you on the dominant side of the partnership. Right right and that was just kind of naturally you know who I was right so a lot of people say well but but you're bottom you know that you prefer bomb I was like well yeah because well I've kind of done all that but I have done all this like I was just like a like I thought I kind of like maxed out here and you know I'm kind of like okay yeah I'm sure there's always there's always something to learn no matter what you're involved with but you know it's kind of like yeah did that done that oh you want me to show you how to do that sure okay but I was like oh there's this whole other side that I just knew nothing about and I was just like a white kid in the candy store and I said well let's do that. Have you done this before no no let's do that you know and so it was something that you know and they said that's just so odd because you're so masculine and just kind of commanding and I go well you know I go I don't feel I've never felt that my masculinity was ever threatened in my life ever like not that I but it was a point to be masculine or macho in my in my former years but I just I am who I am and I never felt threatened by it like I was like man I go you can throw me in a ring and a you know two two and some ballerina shoes and I'd you know still be just as tough as you know if I was if I was you know where and whatever the guard was appropriate for the situation you know like I'm the very outdoorsy guy I do shooting sports I do you know I've done combat sports I've done all sorts of stuff but I just never felt that ever threatened because it's just kind of who I am not someone that I'm trying to be or I don't feel I have to prove myself to anyone other than myself. Interesting and so how long into your encounters with man did you start to play around with the idea of dressing up like a woman. Well that's a little more than a month ago I was like I said I have my I have my six hard nose I don't do. I don't do extreme pain like anything that's you know super painful and no kids are animals and those are kind of like my six just hard nose like as a basis other than that you know I talk to somebody the other day I was like you know we're talking about possibly getting together that's not like well you know what you went to what are you looking for you know like and it's like well what do you mean like well I'm just trying to figure out what to expect I mean you want to come over and like put peanut butter between my toes to lick it off while I squeeze your nipple or you know or do you want to have like a boyfriend experience or you want to tie up or be tied up for you know like what what's your thing you know and and so a lot of things like that like I don't I may not be into it but just because it's weird to me I think you know it's again that's just because it's alien doesn't mean it's wrong or weird it's just it's all subjective and as long as everything is you know I don't want to do that but I'm not going to make fun of you for it but let me let me let me ask you a question and I can't do anything on the up and up then I got no reason to shame I might say no that's just that's just a little too much for me like I don't want to do that but I'm not going to make fun of you for it but I'm I'm let me let me let me let me ask you this will and we'll dive deeper in on there I mean you know there's a few times during the course of this conversation you say you try to be sex positive you you seem to take a negative view of taboos and I wonder if you know if you if you put much thought into why those taboos exist if they have good reasons and if we're forfeiting anything by giving them up well what I mean by taboos or you know like like the peanut butter thing or something I don't just something of notches I don't it's what we call like kink shaming you know just because somebody has a kink for something that is an ear cup of tea I don't feel that we should be little or make fun of them for it like hey if it's found reasonable and I'm okay with it like let's do it like that's okay it's okay that you have that that's they seem weird to everybody else but as long as it's consensual note nothing's getting hurt or no one's getting hurt or if it's something within reasons and I don't feel that we should you know laugh and point fingers or you know the little someone for it and because I kind of take myself as someone that's open-minded one of the things I do when I do random hookups with people is I like to you know that's what I want to know like that's what I want to do like I want to be the person that can maybe bring that to the table for you know the things that you think about you know when you're alone and you know masturbating and kind of afraid to tell your partner afraid to ask somebody if they would do this for you or you know whether it be call your name or do whatever it may be I'm okay with it because and like hey I I kind of it's almost as if that's one of my kinks is to bring other people's kinks that are too embarrassed or apprehensive about sometimes even talking about to life for them. Well I'll share this with you know in the course of my conversations with gay men the the the most persistent observation I make is that most of them are actually not very happy and and you could boil a lot of that down to the premise security that is the completely predictable result of removing the restraining factor of female reciprocity from the sexual equation right to basically you know the male sexual appetite generally speaking is restrained by the reciprocity of females set them loose on each other without that restraining factor in the results are very predictable yeah and like and the and the promiscuity that stems from that seems to result in a great deal dishonesty I mean you described the situation where some guy had three times in the course of a session has tried to remove his condom and I imagine that when you tell this to other people that you that you meet in this community they're actually not as surprised by that as as probably heterosexual people would be right because I would agree with that you know yeah and so like it seems to me that you know there's a stigma around promiscuity generally and there's a stigma surrounding homosexual behavior and since we're observing that the people who are engaging in the behavior are actually not happy in a lot of cases I wonder if the stigma is appropriate well or let me put it in a different way. I ponder the degree of propriety to the stigma. Okay and I'll take your thoughts on that. Yeah I feel that we're talking about too similar but different things so what I was referencing earlier was just the idea of just I'm just sex in general of just maybe not necessarily you know I'm not going to sit here and tell my immediate family you know my sexual kinks and start desires and all that stuff but you know I'm put this way when my mother had the bird and bee stock with me I don't know how old I was probably around mine or so. I said I remember there were some like I remember like yesterday and I told her I said well why don't you just have sex and not put your penis in the woman. Because she was so she was trying to be so PC and so she just danced around everything I just I didn't understand it I didn't understand what she was saying because she couldn't just come out and say it. Yeah and when I it's funny because I found my my new doctor who you know I get tested regularly in all that stuff so I have a different doctor I go to for my prep and all that. And we kind of had a laugh about that because she's she was saying oh my brother teaches me about that the whole time because that was my family too they were Irish Catholic and they just we didn't know that was such a bad words you know we don't we don't discuss that we don't masturbate we don't know that doesn't exist. It's just sleeping on the road turned blind eye not happening in my house and she goes she goes that's probably why I do what I do now because it was so just we weren't allowed to talk about it was so just off limits and so I guess that's what I mean when I talk about removing it now getting down into detail and drilling down of those things and the you know less an ideal for health and community reasons of like you said the promiscuity and the sometimes even cheating and you know go behind backs whether it's their married to a woman or married to a man or in a long term relationship with one or the other it's rampant it's all over and I'll certainly get tested out of there's there's no denying that. It's been sort of remarkable to be I noticed that a lot of these profiles that I see on gronder they identify themselves either as married or partnered or or in a committed or open relationship and in all cases they are still yet looking for sex partners right and you know and you can understand okay you know there's not the same incentives in a homosexual relationship that there are in a heterosexual relationship you don't need the same you know you don't need the same mechanisms for sex. It's always a bit of a bit of a shock for raising children at a minimum right there they're emulating these relationships in certain ways but not in others and therefore the incentives are different you can sort of understand that but in the conversations I've had with people the these things are actually not working out any better than you would expect them to a heterosexual relationship but basically there they're running into the same problems as you know I I have known a number of heterosexual people have engaged in as you put it like ethical non monogamy the or see you know whatever the term polyamory right. These things end up being the observation that I've made both in my conversations with people on Grindr and in seeing this happen in the course of my personal life is that as a matter of fact the adultery actually continues right because the cheating is the cheating is not because they need more sex partners the cheating is a dishonest act that they're doing for the purpose of the dishonest act is my observation. Yeah, I think it's well and I think with the kid the canister I mean you take the it's. Reboys run rampant in a candy store you know you you take the rain's off and it's just it's just become insatiable and I mean it's like I know I know so many men to versus like you know okay no no I've already had sex with you like I don't want you anymore like next one you know what the next experience what's the next one with the next what's next right. And it almost becomes a you know it I mean it's it's an addiction for lacking better term I would kind of at least frame it that way because I've I've seen it where it's just you know of course it's a full spectrum of you know I have a partner who's just completely not in sex to this person just wants to fuck everything or get fucked by everything and everyone they can. Because who's going to stop them you know and because there's if that person says no there's always another one that's going to say yes and it's you know kind of the wild west and they just kind of have three Roman I think men are so. Primal in that regard to where the sex drive you know for most of course there's always exceptions and everything but I mean you're right you know compared to it's the women there is no female version of grinder there's nothing comparable to this for. No no not at all nothing even close or even I mean hardly even in the in the head of a world tour in the swing or lifestyle like I'm I have a lot of friends and was kind of that for a while too and I mean there's other sites like you know a cavity and I can't do you know all these other things I used to go to swing or clubs and all the stuff too and but it's I mean there they're of course there's always there's always extremes and there's always outliers in every statistical data but not to the degree of. Male gay sex it's just it's just over there's nothing that compares to the amount of sex and drive and want and whether that's ethically right or you know if they're doing it with their partners consent or not nothing even comes close it's you know for me I I'm a straight guy there's a time I was involved in like libertarianism and I and I am. I am raised a lot of this like you know no victim no crime if if everything's consensual then everything is right sort of attitude and you know it's sort of observing you know the behaviors of people who are engaging in in you know in stigmatized behaviors you come to understand that there's a reason society discourages those behaviors and it has to do with the satisfaction of the lives of the people who are engaging them is actually what I think it comes out to be it is not that it's I think that I used to the thing that it was people being judgmental and trying to judge others for their own satisfaction or their own moral superiority but when you start to see sort of the the the the consequences of the behavior for the people engaging in the behavior you realize that there's an argument to be made here that this is actually not what it is that it's actually people who are trying to do who are trying to help the people whose behavior they're discouraging is what I'm getting at. Right no and I you know I do agree with you however I think the again I could be wrong but I feel that the majority that that's not the majority's I don't think people are looking into it that deeply I think there's a lot of people I think there's a good portion of the general population out there that is just like you know that's you know something along the lines of that's not what got intended it's just wrong and we're just leaving that that well they don't they don't I'm not saying that they put the thought into it to understand what it is that they're doing right it seems to be that they're responding to an impulse that they haven't put a whole lot of thought into but then we understand that that impulse has a good cause right that that the that the the purpose of them having the impulses is actually not their own satisfaction they might be doing anything just to to to ease their own mind right they are not social scientists they don't understand all of these things necessarily they're just doing you know what comes naturally to them and the reason that it comes naturally to them is because this is a pro social behavior to try to discourage behaviors that we that we can predictably conclude will lead to you know negative outcomes for the person who engages in the behavior. I agree you start putting it on paper and yes I'm not going to argue with you because then it will and then it easily you know can spread like wildfires especially when people are you know those negative health effects or something even if you just I know that's even just one small sliver of some of the negative repercussions but the negative health effects then it's spreading to people that aren't even engaging in that behavior because things are being so but you see where I'm going with it. Well and we do see the behavior becoming more popular I mean I I saw a recent poll from Gallup I believe it was that said that said that 30% of Gen Z women identify as LGBTQ now when you when you delve into it a little bit they've got some pretty loose definitions of what counts as bisexual or queer or whatever there's a lot of this gender theory stuff is sort of contaminated the conversation if you will I they gallup doesn't choose that wording I do that you know there's there's a lot of different there's a lot of there's a lot more room today to find yourself involved in that acronym and there was you know say 10 years ago. And there's some social pressure to do it so they're not actually gay they're not you know they're not having sexual relationships with women they're just there they're finding themselves that they for whatever reason can and choose to identify with the circle but you know there is a growing you know it does seem that as the behavior is destigmatized as the behavior around the whether it's homosexuality or whether it's you know homosexual behavior separate from being you know I was almost actually oriented or whether it's like the gender thing there's there's a lot less stigma surrounding it and therefore we have evidence that it's actually being adopted in in greater numbers there was one of the things that was in the text of the in one of the news stories I read about it they said that you know each generation is you know twice as likely or something like that to identify this way than the prior one it's like well you know how how many generations do we have then before there's not enough children being reproduced to replace our species right you know right one one imagines that you know there be some changes in the culture before we got to that point I'm not saying that it's literally a threat to our survival but you know it does seem that as this as the stigma is removed the behavior grows more popular and then of course all the pathologies they come along with it do right yes no I I would agree with what you said yeah it's got to hit like a tipping point but I agree with you also I'm sorry I do mean to cut you off continue that's okay no go ahead I agree with you also that you know some of the you know the incapacity to have a conversation about it probably does result in a lot of the confusion right so basically you know people are of the if people struggle to explain to somebody that yes you know the reason that the reason the penis goes into the giant is because we need to reproduce our species that's why it feels good and then you know somebody else comes along is like you know is very much more comfortable about it and saying no the whole entire point of sex is for pleasure and you should just go and you know do it any way that feels good well one of these one of these explanations is actually more satisfying than the other one it's not the one that leads to the reproduction of our species right right well and also to I mean it's you know we have given we're just a native curious about everything until like it's one of the the thing that you don't talk about that that that's what the kid really wants to know you know like you know and so and also to I think they're you know now I'm talking about sex when I said that as far as just the taboo sex I'm just talking about sex in general that it happens this is how it happens this is why some people do it this is why it's a necessity this is how some people take it too far and this is you know just lay it out there you know like don't give just a sliver of your you know like let's just be factual not interject our own opinions about it but let's be almost scientific if you are like a from a biological standpoint and how we almost I don't know maybe pervert that if you will no pun intended but you know just come take it to the next level and they get in run with it and turn into you know towards just purely pleasure but I think you know you're bringing up another topic of how it's more accepted now and how it's more kind of so many people are identifying that way and you know it's almost I don't know I may catch some hate for this or something but I almost kind of see it as it gives I think there's a lot of mental health issues with children meaning not in their sexuality but just I think a lot of kids are you know depressed they don't have people to talk to they don't have this and you know being you know finding a community that is not just not just cookie cutter give them kind of a sense of pride and mix until good about whatever that may be it doesn't necessarily have to be sexual you know in nature but unfortunately that's the kind of that's the prevalent thing now so it's more accepting it's like well everybody's doing this and it's you know open and talked about that I don't know you know let me let me try to steer us back okay so yeah I appreciate what you I appreciate your thoughts on the subject though it's very it's it's great you started your your you when I asked you about the cross-dressing in the course of your relationships with men you do it do I do I understand because we've obviously going out of that field for that so like you I think that if I understood you correctly you sort of identified this as a kink this was sort of something that you kind of like wanted to do as a kink with the gods that you were meeting is that fair almost let me let me correct you because we didn't we didn't talk about that that's that's the goal tell me tell me the exception yeah so was I interested growing up but okay so my parents were divorced before I was eight or so eight nine when they split up and my mom had a primary custody of me so it's pretty much raised by my mom she had me I would say 70 80% of time I'm an only child from what that's worth as well I was even dirty sexually intrigued if you will as a child I was I was not abused I was not touched I there was nothing there was no abuse no neglect no nothing sexual sexual nature or otherwise I had a pretty standard childhood otherwise then I grew up in a really shitty part of town but there was an interest of like oh well you know when mom wasn't around who let me see that's just I just want to see it you know like I wasn't necessarily dressing up or putting up makeup or anything but there was definitely I was intrigued because I was like oh well what is that like I said it's kind of the curiosity right and you know it's like why why are all the girls close all soft and silky and all the boys close and all scratch you know but so there was you know there wasn't a lot of interest but it wasn't you know I wasn't getting off on it or anything you know so now where it started recently was it had come by request for someone and it was very it was very step by step it was somebody asked they said hey would you wear something like long socks and like you know something else I man I don't even remember what it was and like one of my exes and you know I found some stuff in the closet from when they moved out miss data I was like hey actually you know what I do sure you should I do have something like that I was like yeah whatever man again catering to other people's king so I was like whenever I don't feel threatened by it like you can call me whatever name in the book you want to call me Mary that's fine you want to call me your dirty little foot or that's cool I don't care I know it's just for that I know it's not how you really view me it's just for in the moment and I don't get offended I'm not offended by it and yeah let's do it that's what turns you on let's make that experience better for it because it's going to be better for you and it's really what you like to do then and I'm okay with it as well let's both just have a great time um and that's kind of how it started I was like oh I go well that wasn't so bad you know and uh walk away it was fine and then it was a little more it was a little more than all of a sudden uh it's just kind of snowballs really and then I said if I came to the point where I was you know because I preferred a bottom uh because when I although I do top man I consider myself first bottom but I do top man but I tend to there's even got to be a a connection there or they have to be more feminine and nature just because I believe my brain has been wired uh it already had it's um what I deemed attractive if you will uh in my peabessant years uh already set in stone before um I was exploring anything with any anal pleasure with myself so I already had that thing so there was you know no I like girls but I like this and you know both could be okay like I can like that that doesn't mean I'm gay or I like men I find women attractive you know this is me growing up so um at one point I was like oh well let's just take this bottoming thing like hey I'm really enjoying it you know uh and let's I've already been kind of introduced by request and I didn't have a problem with it and everything was I never had any negative experience with it um and I decided well hey explore tour of lead like uh let's take it to the next level let's hey uh would you mind if I dressed up one time you know and then and they were like oh yeah yeah I think that's hot actually oh my god I wasn't gonna ask because you know I didn't want to you know whatever but I was like nah that's cool that's straight out and we did it and it was fine I didn't take on a persona of a woman or I was I was still mean just we're different clothes I mean sure I made a hat may have been a little more um submissive or what can equate to feminine and nature during the encounter but um you know they I'm still mean I you know so you do not so for you um this is the cross dressing thing is a sex game this is not an identity you're not demanding that people refer to you with pronouns you're not identifying as trans fair to say fair do you know are my transpiring to be uh you know that is have you made any alterations to your body no okay um well well I will say this um I yes so uh through um okay so I am Caucasian um but I'm mixed I'm all over the border you know I'm like the EU I'll roll into one person but uh um because that's some of my heritage I am a very hairy person um so like full body hair um and so growing up uh there's kind of two sizes uh from my torso up from when I was about 20 I think it started with my arms I was very uh that was the one thing that I was always um very uh for that's been a long day um so conscious about was the amount of body hair because you know in high school you know kids kids mean uh they're they have something to make money about they'll find it right now and uh so I started it started with shaving my arms because that was at least the part that was visible on a daily basis gotcha then to one varying degree or the other from my torso up I had always kind of groomed or you know I have tattoos as well but sometimes I was like just shaving out the tattoos and people like what the hell they said that you're like you got three inches of hair everywhere and all sentences were like cold and you got up tattoo and I was like well I want to see my tattoo I go I can't you know uh so um you know so I went through a lot of just like well so I don't want to be so all through your life you've done a certain degree of man-scaping and probably a step that up when you started putting on skirts uh yeah so in the first uh um actually about three years ago was after it was right after my marriage uh when I was dating someone she said I slept with her and I think it was the second time she goes you you you trimmed your body hair high and I said yeah she said stop and I go now I go you don't know what you're asking for uh the girl for the girl that I was dating and she goes stop she goes no it's just all prickly and everything she goes no just grow it out she goes with masculine manly she's like I like it it's hot like I said I don't know you know like it gets a little much she's like I don't care and I did and I actually became uh you know I actually grew to like it and I was that way for you know our duration and then um actually about uh three weeks ago I kind of went back and I was like okay well let I was trying the cross-dressing thing and I was like the hair just killed it the hair just killed it I can't hide it and I it's like I can't dive into this to the depths that I want to uh unless I do this and I said well I'm already done it before I've done it for the last 20-some-odd years so uh yeah so I shaved uh shaved myself back down um and so I mean I have high brows and pubic hair but uh other than that you know that was back and I'm the only time I actually shaved down that far was for Halloween costume one time because I went full body paint um this was years ago but uh normally it was just from the torso up but this time I went back and I was like I well you know when and when if you're gonna do it I don't like to do anything half-ass so let's just jump in and see what I think about it okay I think that that makes a good deal of sense but you're not taking hormones you're not surgically altering your body the extent of your body modification is to trim your body here yep okay yeah I don't have any plans for anything beyond that okay um do you think that the cross-dressing thing is on a is on the same continuum as transgenderism is there one end where you're you're uh you're a cisgendered heterosexual person and on another end where you have completely altered your body to the extent that science will allow and is and is cross-dressing on that continuum I think it's a stepping stone for a lot for some people it's a it's it's an interim step for others perhaps not correct I believe that would be a fair statement yeah um some people just like it because it's the king some people may they have they may have their various reasons to where that's what happens behind closed doors sometimes people go out in public you know there's again it's it's uh there's varying degrees to which they they take that and um different end games and outcomes I believe too you got a job let me word this differently do you plan to go to work sometime in the future oh yeah yeah and and when you when you go to work will I man or a woman show up oh man okay I don't yeah absolutely okay so so the cross-dressing thing for you it's it's it's basically limited to the the it's limited to it being basically a sex game that's fair to say I think we probably said that already um yeah yeah do you behind closed door for my partner only sort of thing right um and and you portray yourself this way on Grindr do you have an alternate account do you like do you have a do you have a male persona that you do okay so you have you you you could you do either one depending on you know what you're doing or do you have everything or whatever yeah yeah okay yeah absolutely interesting and so um what about uh what about drugs you have any experience with drugs plenty yeah um do you think that drugs are um intertwined in the in the gay sex scene oh without question yeah now not for everyone not for everyone but it is definitely a uh yes it's a very prevalent um is there one drug that you think stands out as more associated with the gay sex scene than as other drugs two actually could be methamphetamines and what people call me refer to as G. Uh G H B? Yes okay um we had one of the other interviews I I had on here talked about the the methamphetamine thing um it is it is you can see it you know and in profiles in certain areas it's more popular than others that you know people will conspicuously capitalize T's in their name to indicate that they're you know that that that's what they're looking for and other people have like the party emoji and um and this this sort of thing to indicate yeah this is what we're into and then other people are like no drugs or 420 okay but no other drugs is sort of thing you see a lot of that in the in the dating profiles right yeah yeah nail on the head yeah exactly and so um what about you what what are your uh what are your uh views on the vices what are my views as far as for me personally or just as a whole or a little bit of both or what are your thoughts I think um I don't think that we could talk about the general matter without your personal take okay they're enough um I personally so I do enjoy sex and sex and drug combo but it's not the so it kind of goes beyond a um just those two it's not um for me it's not one of those things like I've met people where it's like oh well unless they're smoking they're doing methamphetamines like they they they won't bottom they can't bottom right you know like that that's that's you know so that I mean that's a thing um for me personally I I kind of do things in a uh everything in moderation as long as uh we're keeping it controlled that's kind of like my thing it doesn't have to be all the time it's not uh it's not a way of life if you will but I do participate but with substances beyond those as well uh me personally I like psychedelics right um I'm kind of a I'm kind of a hippie at heart you know I say all the time we I say all the time they should legalize mushrooms you know everybody's legalizing marijuana I'm all for it I'm like you know I say I propose a psychedelics when they're done properly in a proper setting mushrooms mushrooms are what drugs are supposed to be right that like you're not you're not gonna overdose and die on them you're high out of your mind you know you're high out of your mind so you don't go to work and you don't do your job and you can't do them all the time even if you want to right you know and I see this you know no drugs for 20 okay and I'm like marijuana is like yeah I imagine that you probably have more positive feelings towards marijuana than I do uh but I tell people all the time like marijuana is like the worst one because it's the only drug that you could do like first thing in the morning in your high old day and make all your decisions high you know mushrooms are like you're gonna you do your mushrooms and you're like yeah I better not fucking do that again for a little while well I actually well maybe not I mean you you you know you you have a baseline and you have to let that reset with both antigens and so they're just something that you can't do daily if they just full goal become ineffectual biologically right um but uh yeah um without all the nuances I kind of agree with you I'm very much uh yeah yeah and so there's a lot of stigma surrounding the methamphetamine thing in the gay community for people who are not into it right there's kind of like there's kind of that line that like if you if you have anything to do with that drug then we don't want anything to do with you on this side of that line is there you know you observe that yeah yeah mess and body here as meth and body here the most divisive thing to the most divisive things in the gay community I'll tell you because I talked to the last interviews I did the guy was like the guy was like if you were gonna make like a museum about queer history there'd have to be like a there'd have to be an entire wing of the museum dedicated to queer smoking meth or something to that effect I'm not it's not an exact quote but that was his general attitude towards it the general idea and other people are like if you're anywhere near anybody who does that I don't want to know you and I will I will block you immediately right uh yeah yeah um well you know just just kind of like anything I mean it's it's one of those um things where it's an extremely slippery slope um you know I've battled with addiction in my past in my youth and um I was what I I don't know if this is a term or not or whatever but I considered myself when I was younger like I was I was a poly addict I mean I was it was just uh there's a famous well not famous but famous to me uh elephant chains they were an alternative dance in the 90s um in one of their songs there's a verse that says you know well what's your drug of choice and it's well what do you got yeah and that was kind of uh my mantra in my you know teenage years um I think Eric I just I just want never good time um and uh you know I've learned my lesson I've never been to rehab or anything but uh I've absolutely been addicted to a few different substances but I've pulled myself off and cleaned myself up and you know did myself right uh so and I know I'm kind of uh and the normally there because it's like once people get clean they tend to either it's like they're going hardcore relapse back or they're not doing it at all ever completely sober um my style uh so I can appreciate the nuance that you're bringing to the subject personally you know I I don't want to talk about myself too much during the course of this because my audience already knows me but I'll just just to just to agree with you you know I'm I'm at a I'm at a point where outside force is forced me to be sober and I don't expect that to be forever but you know I have uh I've there's been times where I can't go to sleep at night unless something is dragging me off into dreamland right and then there are other times where like you know that that okay there's a there's a managed you know uh you know uh there's an intelligently managed I'm going to use this thing recreationally during you know during this set period of time and I'm not going to do things other times you know um I think that that that state that that intelligently managed use of it is probably you know with the exception of adults who occasionally have a glass of wine say that that nuance is probably lost on a lot of people I think I I would agree yeah because it's it's I mean I'm not I'm not gonna lie it's difficult you know it's it's hard because you do want to just it you know people do drugs for reasons they fucking feel good they have fun uh it you know all the reasons um they person find the beneficial uh maybe it's you know none of the pain of this whether it be emotional or physical uh and why would you not want to feel great all the time uh the problem is uh well well I think you know in the case of people who are who are you know in the depths of addiction it's they're not longer trying to be happy right it's that you know they can't they can't cope with whatever's going on in their head and and like to put them in a you know uh followed by the name of laiz pas gal one said all mankind's problems stem from man's inability to sequitly alone in a room and I think that there's a lot of truth to that right the idea that you'd put some people with nothing but their thoughts would they'd rather blow their brains out right and so you know drugs are very conducive to that and and with the amount of unhappiness that I've witnessed in the course of these conversations they it's not surprising to be that there's a that there's a certain prevalence of that and with the methamphetamine it's like that drug is is I do not understand it's it's brought or appeal personally I have this nightmare experience where I tried it a bunch of years ago and all it all it all it made me want to do was do more of it so I yeah well yeah that that that's definitely a thing but also if it was depending on how you're how long it was ago too I mean there was there was the the the elimination of the veteran change the composition of the drug is my understanding exactly it changed from like you know your biker your old-school biker crank that you have in the 70s to and what we see like now is like the ice and it's a little more refined but then it's still cut there's different agents and it's a nickel mess but you know it's just like the way they smoke back in the 60s is definitely not the THC that we're concerned no no so yeah and so where else should we go here I mean we've sort of covered we've gotten into the the sort of the cross-dressing the kinks and the the drugs what else do you think I'm missing here buddy um well I wasn't prepared for that question because I think we kind of really covered a lot well then then then then that's that's okay and that's a perfectly reasonable answer to it and I and I take your compliment that I'm an excellent interview and we got to everything and I appreciate you taking the time you've been very generous with it and I'm grateful do you use any other apps than sniffies and grinder today no no not at all and I just popped on grinder just I it was just I don't know for the hell of it it was like you know sniffies was I think said I kind of live in a smaller town and especially I'm kind of on the I mean I'm in a big city area but I live in a small town and like it suburbs if you will and I'm kind of on the fringes with that so with being with it being a geolocation based focus um you know the the pool is on the so big you know and I was like yeah you know curiosity like well but let's see who's on this one and not on that one because you know that's your coke you know all everybody's drinking soda but everybody's got their you know there's life of that date for for whatever reason so uh I got it went on there just like uh let me check it out cool and so uh you know you're when you're meeting people do is it the norm that you meet them once and not again or do you say what what percentage of your needs end up in a second encounter um it's it's it's it's hard to put a number on it I would uh definitely frame it as a lower percentile yeah but that's not my endgame I would much much much prefer to find you know just a what I call like a regular or a uh continual friend with benefits or whatever you know like um at a point in my life for for several reasons that we don't know but are irrelevant to this subject matter but um I'm just not wanting a relationship right now however I do see friendship in companion then uh a good time so uh I would much rather meet personally play say have two or three people that I could just pay you know these these are the people that you know when I want to maybe you know get naked and have a good time with and you know do do some mullion you know uh whatever or maybe you know smoke a bowl of this or that or what what not uh um these you know I have plan eight plan B and plan C I gotcha I gotcha I gotcha I'll tell you what I think that's I think it's a fine place for us to to conclude it for now if there's anything that you anything else that you care to say I'll let you say it and uh we'll wrap it up and that will be completely unedited I won't I won't mess with your statement okay okay uh I think the one thing that I would like to see more in the community that does um it hinges back to me on defining regularly as opposed to um just being severely riskous and always cost apart because it's just no any sexual health I I don't I think people should really take that a lot more seriously than the gay community does and um be a lot more honest about it uh as far as if there are on any medications their status uh when they've been tested you know what I mean if you want to have a good time but you get you got to keep the party going because otherwise it's gonna crash down and it's just gonna take all your friends with you you know um and uh we honest deal about it uh that's counting the odds you really like to see change well I'll tell you what I know that I just gave you the opportunity to make your closing statement but you reminded me of a question that I've had the entire time so you said you're on prep right what is that for the audience to say I know but but tell them sure so there's um so basically it's it's a daily medication uh there's currently two different kinds um two different options that uh it prevents the infections spread of HIV the uh the term is pre-exposure prophylaxis I believe is the is what what we're saying when it's capital P lowercase r uppercase e uppercase p so so pre-exposure prophylaxis and this is basically if i understand correctly it's actually these are medications that would be given to people who had HIV for the sake of managing their HIV they're giving it to you in advance because you're at risk of contracting it and then in in doing that then if you are exposed to the virus then the the medication acts upon the virus in a way to keep it from taking hold in the body is that a fair assessment of what the what the drug does that is yeah it's uh take the beasting once a day and you know sip a little rousing then i'm sort of thing yeah okay um not not that there's amusing those substances and as a correlation but uh yeah i think it's a little bit different than than than getting used to snake venom it's uh it's it's it's a it's a very different mechanism action actually just yeah but um but but so do you have uh are there side effects associated with that can you tell us anything about the costs uh can you share any of that information with us uh my experience with it um because this was all you know this was all news to me i did you know how long have you been on track pretty much from the get go um as soon as i said okay um well when i was dating that girl we started going to a lot of uh parties if you also we were attending or if you some you know all sorts of things and so we were sitting around with other people but it was always we were always playing safe uh however uh that's what it's like okay i need to start getting tested regularly uh because you know nobody wants to get benched you know everybody wants to have a good time so let's yeah keep the party going um and so that's when i had that conversation with them uh and you know i just educated myself and um you know it was questions go or but with my doctor but uh here in the at least the locale that i'm in uh there's a couple main places that uh it was it's absolutely free of charge to me they ship it directly to my home um because i had just been recently kind of laid off if you will i didn't have medical insurance for a portion of time enough like well i said no i can't do this they said okay well that's okay uh there's they explained to like you know talk to your uh health care provider about this because i'm sure it's different everywhere but uh there was some program that uh they funded and it was everything was free to me everything was free and i go it got nothing but my time there you go and so this is you take one pill a day right yes sir and you say that you have you you're expressing some concern that you know that this is this subject is not treated with the seriousness that it ought to be in this uh in this dating pool correct uh at least that's been my personal experience i have you know i've got people myself saying that they're on prep when they are in fact not i it's like okay well let me see the um you know don't leave the bottle when produce it blocked you know uh i have people a lot of things to do with that uh a lot of these things like uh siftless and gonorrhea they're they're uh they're asymptomatic in men and a lot of people could be carriers of these things and spreading these things to the community and they don't even know they have it yeah and so uh with prep you have to get tested every three months um but that's for hiz i at minimum always get tested for everything and um uh at least three times a month because it was three times a month no uh every three months oh okay did i say that yeah you you said you said you're tested for hiv every three months and then i guess that's what you meant to say again that you're getting tested for everything every three months not three times a month okay we're very good right yeah every three months uh and so um but the requirements to stay on the that's one of the requirements to stay on the prep but you only have to get tested for the hiz right um but i opt to you know man hey i'm here if you're if you're if you're in the amount as well right okay right and and what do you think i mean do you think that do you have any thoughts on why this subject is not treated with the seriousness that you think it ought to be um i think uh any answer i give would be speculation however i would give a couple possibilities yeah that's all we're looking for yeah yeah uh one i think that you know the like i said many STIs are asymptomatic in men and first time i caught one i didn't even know i had it and it wasn't even know if i got it from a guy uh um uh what's it uh tipless uh third um yeah i don't know i took a doxy cycling for like 10 days or something like that i took a pill 10 days ago okay um i didn't even know i had it my uh partner that i was with at the time she got tested and she had it she's like well you need to go get tested because you probably have it because you are one of the only people i have on protected sex with um so uh which is also the preferred method in the gay community as well right i'm protected sex um so uh i think that between the combination of things being asymptomatic um drug use and you know maybe just kind of like hey not really caring i'm just more concerned about my next laid that you know taking the time to do that you know or i'll do it tomorrow and tomorrow never comes um or uh there's people there you know there's things out there right seeing it were home bug tasers people have heard of this that's that's a whole another thing that i don't even want to know about i don't know you know i wonder do you do um and you could decline to answer this if you care to but did you have children producing your marriage? yes okay so you have kids you know i wonder if you think that perhaps that gives you a shall we say longer vision of the future than people who have no prospect of that and if and if you've observed that in your dealings with gay men i think it's the possibility i think that definitely could be a factor uh to some maybe not to all um uh you know any life experience we have i guess is going to give us our own unique kind of insight to to life and um yeah i think you can't that's the best point i hadn't really thought about that before but i definitely think that that could be um and there are more i do see a difference with that because some guys are man they i think you cut out on me i hope i didn't lose you because i think you were about to say something good oh okay so so you cut out you cut out like your whole statement there you said um yeah i'm sorry for the last like minute or so i think you were cut out oh i'm sorry um there's a big uh there's a big dividing thing where i do see a lot of people that there's two camps one that find uh real dads such as like myself something that has biological children as a huge turn on and those people do tend to be more uh um um well more uh emotionally grounded kind of more um empathetic and uh little more um not so much just hard fast sex all the time multiple partners you know i usually see those as people more that's uh settled down um something that's looking for uh closer to monogamy i guess um but there's just a difference uh in their emotional i don't want to go so far as to say emotional intelligence or emotional like key because you know i'm pretty much the others don't have that um but there's just a little bit of a difference there's a little more of that moderately sort of oh that's that's nice i think that's really attractive you know i can understand without making a value assessment of the subject you can say that they're that their their emotional disposition is decidedly different and we don't have to say better or worse it's just you know it's a completely different category of thought i think it's fair to say i i think it's insightful you know there's um the political influence of gay politics is sort of an interesting thing and part of the reason is because because of that phenomenon the different tendency towards future orientation i think explains their disproportionate representation in left wing politics right that that that you know there was a economist by the name of john main or canes who he famously said you know oh well you know if you do these policies long enough it'll be you know destroy the economy and he says well in the long run we're all dead and it turns out that he's a homosexual right so he does it he's you know in the long run yes we're all dead but there's going to be people here after us is kind of the idea and that's a very bad way for an economist to think you know and and it turns out you know for individuals not to think that far ahead in their own lives actually has some pretty negative consequences as well right right no i would agree yeah so yeah well all right well hey buddy i'm so thankful to you for taking the time today i think that you you've provided a lot of really um valuable insight into what's going on on grinder and in your own personal experience and i appreciate it and you've and you know uh i hope that you don't go into radio because you got a voice for it and i don't want you competing with me okay so thank you very much for your time today and uh i'll talk to you offline okay okay sounds great thank you for having me i appreciate the opportunity uh you are great thank you so much thank you bye hello my friend okay so you know how exactly we deal with this in the editing process i'll figure out towards the end i i i think you said you trust me and i appreciate that what i'll just insert on the recording here is a brief summation of what just happened is that after we hung up i i sent you a message to thank you uh you you you expressed me that you had some concern about getting political and i said well you know as a matter of fact i'd love to get more political i'm just you know what i'm doing these things i'm i'm trying it's very important to be that these not be negative experiences for my interview subject so i'm going out of my way not to get in political arguments with them i sort of you know i drop a few you know what might be described as conservative leaning points and you know i'd listen for reactions and uh you know those have those have met mixed reactions say and so i think that there are some things that in in the light of that that you that you wanted to still talk about and so why don't uh why don't why don't you say what uh what's on your mind okay um well before we before we start going record can i just can we well we we are recording but i will i will not i will not broadcast anything you don't want said right so it's okay if you want me to stop recording i will i'm just informing you of what no you could keep the recording uh that's fine um always good for reference later on artisewat not but uh um no i just want to say that i i am by no means a uh these are strictly my personal views i i cannot debate these uh subject matters there's only so much insight so i'm guessing saying uh maybe throw me some softballs like i like if you're going to ask me some deep shit like uh you know um i don't mind the the you know the intellectual wrestling a little but um uh like i said i don't keep up on these topics i don't really uh follow current news on these events but i just i i know enough to form my own opinion then that's exactly how i see it is just my own opinion well and and at the risk of being repetitive to you i'll read to you precisely what i just said to you on grinder which is your opinions however informed are worthwhile there's dishonest and nefarious people pretending that there's a consensus in the gay community that there are trans kids and that they should become ideological science experiments and that anybody who opposes them hates gay people that's obviously complete fucking bullshit and nobody has spoken to on grinder for more than five minutes agrees with it now and that's why i call them the rainbow mafia they aren't actually helping gay people they have their own agendas now i should correct myself because there is one person i spoke to for more than five minutes on grinder who does disagree with that this is a person who identified as a female to male transgender and it was entirely a declaratory matter for this person that they they simply declared that they were male and didn't take you know they they did not alter their body they did not go get surgery they did not take care of i'm a boy now right they're just they're just on grinder with a vagina calling themselves a gay man and you know and the gay men actually find this pretty preposterous in my experience and so this is interesting stuff a lot of shit that they i think i think i think our viewpoint kind of align a lot with you but uh yeah obviously i'm kind of not your typical case study um but uh you know i'm not trying to be either i was like like i told you before i said i don't care what anybody's doing i used to cam model when i first lost my job lost my card lost all the stuff i was sitting at home in the middle of nowhere and uh i was like well what do i do well i got a big member i know how to use it and i got an internet connection so let's hop on camera to make some money and uh that's what i did i had no idea what other people are doing never even signed on i had to look up a website i was like i know people are doing it i don't know what they're doing i'm just gonna do me and uh right on i just kind of the way i do things so in any case look i'm not trying to what i'll try to do is just to the goal that i have here is to find out what you think and and and we're not purporting you to be an expert okay and the only reason i would challenge you at all on anything that you have to say is to get more information from you the goal is not to win the art i'm not trying to get into an argument much less win it with you okay that's that's the goal that i have here yeah that's all i mean to well i i think yeah i'm like i said i think we kind of line on some things anyway or at least so i i think one of the things that that stood out to you about the conversation was when i brought up this gallop poll that that said that like 30 percent of eugensy women eugensy females are identifying as members of lgbtq and there does seem to be an increasing prevalence of this and you you have more opinions on that than you shared earlier i think is fair to say is that is it yes yes tell me about that please sure so i've had i've had little personal experience with some of these people like first camp and these are again just kind of my i've seen it first and these are people that i know people that i've sat down and broke bread with you know it's their their kid you know their child or you know we're not i'm not talking about some something that you hear off in a faraway land on the news you know this is close to home um and you know there's i see a lot going on with the children as far as the choices that they're making how they're identifying with themselves and i while i am all for america and freedom and you know be who you want to be but i just don't i kind of almost it makes me sad and uh i almost want to say upset um when i see these things as you know pre-peabethan children um um going through hormone therapy uh doing things that are um making decisions that such a tender age where uh held they don't even know what they want for dinner let alone what they want to be when they grow up let alone you know my daughter she haps times she thinks i'm a cat and she's a cat for a week that cool um you know and she puts on she says and she says okay what i'm yell once this is what this means and what i mean how twice is what that means and i'm like just just tell you what you mean um uh but i think we're putting some of the heaviest decisions on uh you know not self-care you know not down cliche but um i mean these are the future of our nation i mean these are the kids that are going to grow up to be member fostering members of society and possibly you know political figures or people that are of influence or whether that be to the masses or just to their close circle of friends and um i mean shoot if we don't even let them vote give their opinion on who should be mayor in their city uh why why are we giving them access and why are the parents allowing um to put their children through something that's irreversible that's a lifelong decision that can't be something you just can't take back i mean this is we're talking heavy stuff here we aren't um yeah and it's it's not just it goes beyond it goes beyond our constitutional freedoms i feel um it's it's not just that you know we could be free and hey if you want to my daughter must be a cat for a week and then the dog the next week and you know then she's the wolf for three weeks uh you know that that's fine but those are things that can be um we could we could play Kate to those you know things and even if they're how do i say it even if that's how they truly feel and they you know i understand there's a whole lot of uh there's a whole spectrum of the whole i'm not even gonna get in the whole lot of people born gay or not because you know hell i don't know i'm not deaf and i don't have this like you however um you know yes we all have feelings yes they all are intense and emotional at that time and they feel extremely valid at that time but boy i can tell you how many times where i've said i was honest with myself i said oh well yeah but i was sure demmy then or what the hell of i think you know um i think we could all say that as humans but um to do that it makes me wonder the agenda like what's really going on here like is it uh to me it begs the question of are these children doing it because as we talked about earlier the the amount of people that identify to these need to these uh groups um uh in the gay community or otherwise the lgbti qi i'm sorry you're losing track of the alphabet too i understand i don't yeah i yeah it just keeps on expanding and it and it will never stop by the way because i i'll i'll let you know you know it there is an agenda behind it okay and i won't endeavor to try to get to the bottom of it in the course of this conversation but you know it's a subject i've done some discussing about yeah to say raised a bit okay and here's the thing here's here's here's here's i'll just i'll say i'll share with you a viewpoint and then i'll just let you respond to it we'll go back and forth that way okay you actually can't raise a child sex neutral okay you are going to inform them that there's mommies and daddies and that they produce children and they get married or you're going to inform them of something else right and so you know that the the people who are advocating this stuff in the schools what they're actually saying is you are indoctrinating the kids into heterosexuality and then people who are trying to appear modern are trying to say well okay let's not indoctrinate them into heterosexuality and the alternative to that is that they're going to be indoctrinated with all this gender nonsense that's the only alternative to they will be taught one of these things or they will be taught the other they can either be taught that this is normal or they can be taught that there's no such thing as normal and and if you try to teach them that there's no such thing as normal then the people who have agendas will come in and in fill their heads up with all sorts of abnormal crap to to tell them that that is normal and that is the phenomenon that we're witnessing i think i thought we were what you say yeah um uh let me get some anecdotal evidence um let's talk about me in mind for just a moment um not gonna get too personal yeah but um and you can if you want uh remember i'm not gonna say what city you're in i'm not gonna say i'm not gonna try to identify you in any way there may be obo mafia is not gonna be able to put a hit out on you for this conversation if i can help it pal gotcha um no because i uh so here's the thing i i the way i choose i'm not saying it's right around but this is the way i choose to raise my children is um you know weird is great we celebrate weird uh uh uh you're weirdo uh yeah um because i'm not you know i'm not doing it um for fame or recognition or to be different because because we're just subjective kind of like what i would say before and uh you know i i tell my kids all the time i said don't me and my ex-wife have very polarizing views on religion um we're kind of the opposite of the spectrum there and i tell my kids i said hey don't don't believe if if you want to believe in christianny that's fine if you want to not believe in christianny that's fine i said but i want you to do your own research and make your choice for yourself and it doesn't have to be the same one as that of your sibling and don't do it because your mom thinks that way or don't do it because i think that way i go i want you to make your own choice and so i promote you know uh uh critical thinking and uh you know thinking for themselves and not following the crowd and um being their own person but i i beg to wonder where why some of these parents maybe make the choices that they do especially when we get into harm out there if you have pre-pubescent children because uh they i've seen it firsthand where uh i i i know trans people i know okay people i know all all this do you many do you know many happy trans people i admittedly i only know a a a a few that are like you know actively trans that i can that i mean i have their phone number and i call them you know one i actually just thought yesterday um and uh um you know she's going through a lot of stuff but uh she uh she's told me that she kind of has some of i hear some of her stories because she kind of vents to me about same sort of thing uh she made this decision in her life as an adult you know i had had gone through all this and you know had those internal struggles and dilemmas and you know questions in their head of who they were and who they wanted to be and who they felt they should be and how that should uh personify in the physical world you know not just in uh a mental state but in the physical state as well um and there's been you know she's she's lost a couple of friends because of just their depression and how they or they regret their decision they thought they were happy and then you know uh just as time heals all wounds time also offers clarity on some things and uh boy if you know if being human i mean being human is to regret we all fuck up you know we all think we know something absolutely you know that this is absolute truth and um then if we're truly honest with ourselves uh we sometimes later find out we were mistaken and it's not that we were lying it's not that we were doing this but we were just mistaken uh for whatever reason for whatever influence and um um i just it really bothers me because i i don't know if people are doing this because it's so prevalent now and it's cool and it's it makes them uh you know it gives them a uniqueness and an identity and you know not to go off on a snowflake thing but you know that they are special and hate you know you can you know we all grew up you know your parents telling you you can be whatever you want well you know i don't think this is what they meant necessarily um and well part of it you know i there's some evidence that it's more prevalent in white girls no matter fact okay and so like you know we we're seeing this this this this huge certain now i mean the whole entire you know the whole entire category of you know alternative sexual identities is is growing to some extent but where it's growing the most is among white girls okay and i i think that it's fair to say that you know there's this there's this idea that the white heterosexual the white heterosexual demographic is the oppressor class and that the only way that a person can overcome that since they can't change their race is to change their sexual identity is actually what's going on right and i think that that's a large component of it you know that's an interesting plan i consider that but now that you say that um yeah that's a definitely a stop to vote in statement and and i've talked to um this this phenomenon of the female to male transgender uh community is an interesting one in its own because that emerges often in groups i've talked to these people and it it is in in a larger number of cases than with male to female that they are saying you know me and my friends sort of discovered this category of ideas and then found out that we were this thing right well no that's not exactly that's not what happened at all right you did not have a condition that all of your friends just so happened to have you were fed a bunch of information then you adopted those ideas and then you acted on those ideas it's a social contagion so it's happening right it's a like um i think i'm going to run but no it's it's uh it's yeah it's also a dating one word um or term but yeah it's like a uh it's a math uh pure pressured you know um i don't know why are we having the inflex now but we didn't 20 years ago i mean we still have people that were you know we use different terms back then like in the 80s and such um but it was uh there they're still there but not not the numbers that we're seeing now and as as it's one normalized it's it's because it's you know makes them i don't know i almost feel that it's for notoriety or to um you know some of it maybe could be like you say into a change that to escape that uh scapegoat i guess or whatever it may be but uh it's actually about adoptive so it's not it's no longer about being different it's about actually conforming to an an alternative standard right what is becoming yeah and what is becoming the standard is you're not part of the dominant group you know right right and um i mean i've seen it in uh you know this six and seventh graders like stories like firsthand stories of you know people i know their their children it's like oh well my daughter has you know three trans boyfriends and i'm like what they're they're they're they're ten yeah first of all why are the hell they even having a a romantic uh okay just not the way i choose to raise my children um but uh you know straight trans gay whatever i don't feel that kids tend your own or they should be worried about tend your own my mother would not have tolerated me having a girlfriend no matter how much i love girl and how much we planned on getting married if i was ten years old i told my mother i had a girlfriend i we don't we both be in a lot of trouble and i'd never see that girl again right and now and now you have three of them and they're all trans i don't uh this this is um i'm not making this up as an example this is an actual conversation that i had first handled with someone i know and i was listening to this and i was just my job was just i didn't know what to say i um i just don't feel that it's right and but they set it with such um pride and conviction and it was like word as a badge of honor and i just um um i i don't because we all have to demonstrate we all have to demonstrate our loyalty to the to the to the new regime right is what it is it's the same thing with the covid mask right you you're probably capable of noticing that the covid masking and and the vaccination stuff was it it continued long much longer than it was plausibly useful you you probably noticed that as well right and so i still see people driving around them and cars by themselves with the mask on i imagine that happens more and than we're on them and so and so what they're doing is they're demonstrating that they're part of the part of the game right they're they're demonstrating that they're they're on board this is like uh you know a lot of you know a lot of religious rituals exist you know the i'm sorry i should say that the the Darwinian explanation for a lot of religious rituals is to identify oneself as the member of the group right it's it serves as the social the the the the the the evolutionary purpose of the behavior and to say nothing of its factual accuracy is that you know it identifies you as the member of the group and then you're part of the group and then you derive the benefits of group membership it's the same thing right is what they're doing that's why they feel that they need to go out and they need to announce it right the herd mentality it's a right and which which i don't say to i don't say that to say anything negative about her herd mentality by the way i think that the reason that we're falling into these things is that you know people have tried to this is the consequence of individualism as a matter of fact is that you end up with a new collective that it that it turns around and then people are basically like you decide that we're not going to defend our culture anymore you you it turns out that what happens is a different culture just comes into replace as yours and it's not nearly so pluralistic right yeah i know i i i would have to agree with that i think it's it's it's how far you know how far can we push our display of dedication and loyalty to this cause you know and it becomes it's becoming more and more extreme to where i don't i don't think that we're we're looking at the it's almost like a can't see the force through the trees you know we're not seeing the the long term the real effects of this but it's just the here and the now and the hey oh yep i'm one of those two i got one you know yeah you know my foot and i think it's it really it honestly kind of breaks my heart it's kind of saddening that that that was super allowed to i mean it's a terrible tragedy happened i mean yeah we got we have some states you know that yeah they'll come after the parents right if you don't let us do this to your kid then then we'll come in we'll have cps or dcfs whatever the the local acronym is coming in and we'll intervene in your family if you don't let us give your child puberty blockers and and start them on this process right and right you know when you have both eyes that or the parents are fighting for it and they're and i mean shoot i know people that you know they i never want knew what i wanted to do i want to be a vet when i was growing up you know did i become vet no uh i have friends that went through college you know they're changing their major they're two or three years in the college what you what well i just don't know yet i don't know and we're talking about adults that could buy a firearm vote go to war drive a car do out make these you know pay taxes make decisions on a regular basis that do affect us as a collective as a whole as and as a country as a nation but to but where are we after there 16 16 18 21 right right but we're letting children decide they're i was i was banned from grinder because i saw a a woman on there who had every appearance of being female who identified herself as a female female transgender and having spoken to two female to male transgenders whose lives were completely destroyed by testosterone i said hey you know i just want to talk to you about this i think that you're making a bad decision you know you you still have your your femininity like whatever it is that you want to do with your life you know you still have this option and i want to caution you against making permanent changes and sure enough she reported me to grinder and i was banned and i didn't call her name i didn't use an epithet i didn't all i tried to do is counsel her against doing this right because that the regime that pushes this stuff like i said they are they are none so pluralistic as they make themselves out to be it's it's entirely one way pluralism they're saying that we're going to destroy this way of life and you're going to either go along with it or we're going to destroy you yeah yeah and that's mm yeah that it's really frustrating it's the whole uh sticking your fingers in your ears and none none none none I don't hear you you know you know let's let's have an honest look fine you want to do that let's have a not a discussion about but well it won't stand an honest discussion hopeful us having exactly the capability of having the honest discussion talking about the real truths as difficult as they may be but but you know what that's fucking life yeah and uh people need to be honest with themselves and with each other and you know fuck all the sads and what your neighbors are doing and what you read in the paper and what you know man just if we focus more on just um being productive members and give them more loves one another and just like looking out for each other for our general well-being and for the collective uh we just i feel we've just been a much better space we're supposed to bring these things up and you know like i said like it's just a display of how dedicated we are and it's gone to so far extreme and to such high numbers that it's you know they're like i said before and in every data statistic there's always extremists and outliers you know there's always there's always that you know that glow what i call you know like the the exception to the norm you know there's always going to be those exceptions but when the exception becomes the norm um when you did really look why that's happening and what impact it's having on us you know individual founders of society yeah i think so and look i mean this is what i met when i brought up the thing about the stigma okay is that you know what what i've observed in the course of this is that the the impulse to judge other people's behaviors actually part it is a pro social thing it's been treated as a as an anti social thing and and what we're note what we're what we're finding out the hard way i think is that the the most pro social thing that we can do is be judgmental of the behavior of the people that we care about as a matter of fact that if we if we are not if we're not correcting them when they're when they're doing things that are destructive and harmful then then actually we're not doing them any favors at all the idea that we are not supposed to judge one another is preposterous that's the only way that you can have a society if there's a standard of conduct and it's enforced through social norms norms right well it's it's it's and i think that there's a new one to it because i think you know i i'm sure you agree with me that people who lack a drive to have sex with women are are obviously not making a choice right that that they gay men or or lesbians you know that they are they are they are bound to that they're not making a choice you're making a choice a lot of the people that you probably meet on Grindr are making a choice and they're and that's a that's a completely different category of motivation would you agree with me yeah yeah and and so like society has to accommodate those people because if we just tell homosexual men not to have sex that that's not going to work right that's that's a that's not the answer it's a completely that's completely out of the question okay so like that needs to be addressed in social policy people need to think about how are we going to how are we going to address this phenomenon of of people who are driven sexually in other ways but we also have to um to not i think my personal view of it is that we can't be encouraging the behavior the way that we are we're witnessing the consequences of it and it's completely catastrophic right of which behavior i think that the idea of you know let's say the the most conspicuous portion of it is associating the LGBTQ thing with the rainbow okay this is happiness this is love this is all of these things and all of these people who are involved in it the narrative that we're fed is that none of them have any choice in that this is equal to heterosexual behavior well the truth of the matter is it's not equal to set heterosexual behavior and a lot of the people are very unhappy and if we discussed it more honestly then it would not be a thing that's celebrated with parades would it right right um if you have a contrary viewpoint you please air it yeah no um um i think uh calling it pride right the whole entire phenomenon this is a big marketing campaign for non-reproductive sex yeah which which we all have yes we all have um i mean too you can even take it to the seat let i have them to protect me you know uh so all my sex is not right but um uh you know and even i'm just throwing it out there that you know that it's not just um the gay or bisexual or you know however people choose to like identify it's not just limited to them what you're saying it's you know we all do that but um in certain instances and with certain cases though um it's a worthwhile observation yeah yeah you know what i mean to say is this you know it there's there's a there's a thing in politics some will refer to this as the horseshoot theory okay and i don't actually i don't agree with this term that i'm that i'm describing to you but i'm going to use it as an analogy for something else that you know basically you go too far left you go too far right you come around in a horseshoe you have the same problems okay now this the idea the idea they're being is that basically you could take your politics too far in either direction now what i the reason i explain that not because i necessarily agree with that viewpoint is that the the the sex thing becomes it's not about gay or bisexual or whatever what it is is about it they never there's no point at which they would stop okay like solalinsky in his book rules for radicals which is one of the more influential far left publications he he says there's actually no point at which were satisfied we have to keep on moving things in a left or direction and it will never stop we basically the destruction of order and and order being what it is you can't actually destroy it you can just disrupt it perpetually and so like they're doing this they're doing this with sex is what they're doing and so like you know the trans thing really begins to become this this big this big hurrah after obogor full v hugges right it's it's after the gay marriage decision that they're like oh now we need to move on to this new thing and you know Kim Davis is not even out of jail before they're before they're saying that you know men have to go into the ladies room and stuff like this you know and so like right you know that's the that's their thing and they'll never reach a point of satisfaction if the trans if trans identity were normalized they to immediately move on to something else I mean you sort of see it already that like it's no longer about okay you're a transgender woman or transgender man it's I'm non-binary and we're going to create a thousand different pronouns right yeah yeah and yeah that's uh hold yeah um it's it spirals out into there's no such thing as truth that there's no that there's no objective truth in the world right that the idea that they're no they're at war with the physical universe essentially yeah yeah and it's um I think people almost get um I'll drunk it with this uh need to just keep pushing it further and further because it's it's it's never it's never far enough like we you know it's like okay we we accept you okay you don't you don't like go okay that's cool you know um but it's it's the next step and then the next step and the next step and it's it's it becomes a point where you know there's you got people walk around there just they're they're they're they're I don't know they're aliens or I don't I don't know well and precisely and but at the same time we notice that we now not universally but in far fewer in a far fewer percentage of cases do we find married families in this position right that they're actually yes like I'm I'm a husband I'm a wife I have children I raised them I'm going to do that and then I'm going to die and then my children are going to do the same thing as me there's a there's a there's a there's an equilibrium that is reached in this lifestyle that is not reached in alternative lifestyles and I think that that's kind of part of the reason that we witnessed so much unhappiness amongst the grinder community possibly I mean you know one thing I was thinking of too it's just it's the I always kind of grew up you know now that's just bothered me I mean uh you know racism sex all that stuff you know like I said earlier I'm Caucasian one two of my best friends growing up one was from Thailand his parents didn't speak a lick of English uh and my other friends black and like we were just like a three-piece in a pod and and I know kids are always innocent and all that stuff from a lot of these hatred things pot you know but um it's it's the why do we have to just and why are we why is there this need or this urge for people to yell from the rooftops and you know put it in everyone's face like who they are and why like okay I like music I'm a musician you know I don't I don't have to do that I don't I don't feel or say I prefer brunette overblowns or you know now I haven't had sex for men that I have women because well there's a few reasons but um you know I don't have the need to that's my business that's my business and um I don't I don't have to push in everyone's face and you know have a have a parade over it make it be known everyone like it's that's intimate to me and that's you know my decision but um um the constant of telling us that you're stringed from the norm and that we should all come along with you and this is the way is I think a little outrageous because it just seems like it's it's all the time now it's just everywhere and it's I just want to live my life a piece and be normal I have my word quirks I like being weird but um I don't force my habits upon others or my actions and choices um out of the where I'm going it's okay it's okay don't worry about it just seems very uh um it's gotten to a point where it's kind of scapeable it's like I don't I don't care like there's the culture but I really don't care like I don't want it in my face like that well here's no about the bowel movements what what what what I think that you're observing is what's causing the the heat to be driven up in the culture war okay it's that there's a lot of people who are starting to figure out that there's actually not there actually is not a neutral viewpoint okay there's a people who are trying to destroy a culture and that culture can either defend itself or not but it's not going to be neutral it's not going to continue without defenders right and and so I when you say you know why do people feel compelled to do this like there's answers to that question and they're and they're very unpleasant answers so I'll just leave it at that for now but like yeah I say this kind of uh I don't under like I know they do but I don't necessarily agree with it I don't see their um they're these are uniforms in a war is what they are and and and people are gonna people are gonna wear their uniform and like and actually nobody's gonna be left unclosed when we're done right everybody's gonna have a uniform yeah you know and and that's I think what you know you're seeing and you know whenever anybody tries to respond to any of the cultural degradation they're they're called a big-etna hate monger and our society has adopted this mantra that that's a very bad thing to be you mentioned you're you know you're you're non-white friends when you're growing up that is a very different phenomenon than living in a black neighborhood isn't it now I don't know if you ever have but I think that you're smart enough to know that there's a difference we having a black friend in a white neighborhood and living in a black neighborhood right yeah absolutely because I was I grew up in a very non-white neighborhood uh I was the only I was probably the only kid that English was my first language I mean we had bars security windows you know security doors bars our house our house was tagged up like I I only speak English um it was it's a much different experience when you're in the thicket um then just having a Hispanic friend or Latino friend you know right um yeah um and uh boy I was gonna say something about forgot um oh the the demonizing of the if you're not with us in this new way of thinking and acceptance uh I I kind of have a just a bone to pick with that too that that feels very um it almost uh what sort of looking for uh like an oxymoron like I feel like you're being counted you're you're doing exactly what you're preaching against but just in a different manner and well quite frankly personally I don't appreciate it uh understandable you know like yeah like it's uh you know to say if you know hey you need to accept us or else you're this like you were saying you know you're this you're you know we're the same shame shame and it's like well no no what I don't I don't yeah I appreciate that I'm sorry I don't mean to cut you off you you continue and then I'll respond no that's okay I'm I don't I don't know what else to say I mean I just I don't like the um the way some of these uh communities are disrupting the norm not to say the norm is right but the norm's working and uh if you're looking at it biologically um you know this the way it works but it's uh to say that how it kind of goes back to the pronoun thing um you know for me having to you know the whole gender assumption or not using your proper pronouns like I'm sorry I just I just met you and um you know you want the freedom to do that well I want the freedom to say whatever I want and not be called a racist or a bigot or uh you know homophobic or a transphobic because of it you know because uh that's not the case I just uh well but you know I think the world's just a different place man um and it's it's becoming very confusing even for me as an adult sometimes and I can only imagine how confusing it is to a child who can't um even have the critical thinking skills half that of an adult is trying to make sense of all this and man they're just they're just following the leader half the time yeah I mean that's what a kid is supposed to do right that's exactly what a kid is supposed to do is to take instructions you know and it and it matters very much the instructions that they're given you know this idea that we can raise them value neutral is is actually preposterous and it doesn't have a severe disservice to the child you know I mean you know yeah you mentioned the idea of like okay you know and and this is not to criticize your parenting by any search of the imagination but you you you you mentioned okay you can believe in Christianity or not but as a matter of fact that's not how Christianity works right right like it it it it purports to be a universal you know a thing and and to say to say that you can believe in something other than that is is actually to teach against it right well but you but the all religions say that I mean exactly that's that's the nature of religion it is it is an absolute proposal right so if we say right if we teach if you teach a child and I'm not saying that it's a wrong thing to teach a child this but I'm saying that if you teach a child well you could pick from a menu of religions or non-religions what what you're actually saying is that religion is not true you're actually teaching the child that well no it's just it's saying here are your options you know I guess how do I frame it not everybody can be right yeah not everybody can be right now who is right I don't have that authority to make that I'm objectionals to say that as an objectionals truth and be honest with myself you know I don't know I think for me the honest answer is I don't know and but you know what you need to figure I could I could present you with what data or facts that I know and have and try and do that in a most neutral way but that by no means the answer and I guess what I'm trying to tell them is to don't don't believe this just because dabble is it or don't believe that just because mom believes it or don't believe that just because your uncle says it or you know like you know believe it because you figured it out and you know you took those steps and that those ideas and thoughts are that of your own not of of us that's a worthwhile point you know teaching them to to teaching them how to form ideas is an important thing to teach a child right and and it's not done often enough I think they're not because they're told what to do you know there's like you said there's a certain point where yeah we're telling you know if our if their job to listen then to do as told but because you teach them to the good but at the same time they come to point where we need to teach them to critical think it feels and to think for themselves and how to form those opinions and ideas for their own and weigh the you know the outcomes and see the you know the benefit or the deficit or whatever it may be whatever choices may I think that's a fair assessment and so you know I think uh let me see what else the you know when you are dressed and you're going out uh do you find yourself in a position where you need to use a public restroom and do you uh do you which one do you choose if you're in that position if I'm in what position yeah let's say I I don't know if you're going out in public or if you're just meeting men from sex when you're dressed say you're more to meet a man in a ball or a dress when I'm dressed up as a woman yeah or dress up in feminine clothing yeah well me personally um no I don't go out in public um so but if I was uh I I kind of goes back to what I've seen before but you know if I think about I only have to think about it for a moment but I would go into the bench because uh to me uh well it's like I said I don't feel like man you could you call me whatever you want just need a better like you can put whatever you know rapper you want on this I'm still a man and the reason that we separate the men's and women's bathrooms is because men are dangerous to women and when you send them in there it doesn't matter if they're dressed in sheep's clothing there's still wolves aren't dying yeah um yeah and it's just you know it's don't we don't all find our uh spouse strictly based off of beauty you know like men look for men want peace that that's what they really want yeah in a in a partner they want peace because they'll they will take a peaceful life over the prettiest woman every time I'm a scared the smart one other ones will pursue the beautiful woman and end up in a lot of pain yeah um but you know so you know that's one lesson I learned in life you know yeah you know there's always that one pretty person that walks on the bar there everybody want to take home you know or something like that whether matter woman whatever um but you know it's the the rapper doesn't matter you know at least at least you know it it does when you're young I guess at least you think it does um but as I you know grown older and you know experienced and met people and you know done all these things uh it's what's on the inside and let's make that person a person and so that's it's just like me I you know I am like I said early on like I just don't have my masculinity threatened like I I don't care because I am who I am and that's just that's just me and that I'm a man and uh I may do some weird kinky shit you know behind closed doors and whatever like oh you haven't done that yet oh man you haven't lived until you try it uh but at the end of the day you know still me and we are who we are and you know we're like to about change we could always change but um still man still woman there's it's interesting that you say that your masculinity is not threatened you know on the uh I appreciate you you certainly haven't had a chance to listen to the entire thing I sent you a a sample recording of one of these interviews I conducted with another gentleman and he told me that he he talks that um that you know that there's a there's a tendency for gay men to start as tops and gravitate to being bottoms because in the initial stages of it they believe that their masculinity is less threatened by being a top right and that that they as they become more comfortable in it than they gravitate towards bottoming because they they sort of you know the pressures are different at some point. It's good to sing it's you know yeah yeah you you you slowly turn the you know you put a pot of that I lose you. Hello hello so yeah I hear you now you say it sounded like you were not to say put on a pot of coffee is what it sounded like you were about to say oh yeah no no I lost it. My earpiece fell out with my mic. Okay. Um anyway uh well it's like the you know you put the frog in the pot of water and you slowly start heating up the water. Okay I don't feel like it's it's it's a it could be a gradual conditioning if you will to where they find that now what seemed uh I I I get that I could see that case being a lot where a lot of men start off as tops because you know he he he said something else I thought was pretty good. He said something else I thought was pretty interesting in the course of that which is that that that later on in in that progression that a lot of the a lot of the people who are gay men who have been gay for you know a sufficient period of time that the the ones who identify as tops after that sufficient period of time are often actually the more effeminate ones. Have you noticed that at all? Uh I have seen that to be the case. Interesting um because I now granted anecdotal evidence or not I haven't been taken a study but uh that's all we're looking for. One of my uh um more of my friends and men we actually hang out more than we actually get together to have sex we hang out just because we enjoy each other's company like we just you know but uh um the funny thing is is that I'm very masculine and yet I tend to bottom more and he is boy you look at him and oh you think he's there's no getting that uh he prefers men to women let me just put it that way. Right uh the way carries himself is uh uh his his voice his mannerism is very just very feminine nature um and uh um not that he's slim boy but he's just feminine nature um yet he's a barely uh aggressive top and it's like yeah and I go maybe that's why we're such good friends or something maybe we just uh I don't know have that we're kind of polar opposite thing going on or something but um but he's a he's a great guy he's a young guy extremely intelligent um and uh but yeah it's I get a chuckle at it every time I think about it. Do you find that uh um yeah you don't have to give me an exact number but you know as a percentage or a portion of the the men who will contact your your cross-dresser persona on Grindr or other apps we are a significant number of them identifying to you as straight men uh yes oh okay so I do okay so let yeah let's give a little context here um so I do have uh two different personas or profiles though you just depending upon my mood you know just the normal well quote unquote normal me um the everyday me let's call it that um versus the um five or ten percent version of me which is you know like hey I want to bottom and I want to you know like uh scratch the stitch if you will and uh dress up uh the response the amount of responses that I get is overwhelmingly uh greater and be dressing up as a woman you get a lot more attention from from men on the app when you're when you're doing the cross-dresser thing yes and that could be from there's there's three groups there that I've noticed uh one is just your standard top because it's like almost maybe a uh you know like your dom top like uh yeah you're you know some people like to be verbally degraded you know so it's like yes that other sense of uh dominant power over them like you know you're not even you can't even be a man you have to be you know this now and uh to like embarrass them as a sense uh it's kind of a cake thing um now some a lot are also uh they call by by curious men are married a lot of these men are straight a lot of these men identify the themselves identify as straight or married or curious or I can't tell you how many guys I've had hit up well you know um I am I've always kind of been curious but I've never done anything with a man before but you know uh you know I you just you look good and I just you know there's that draw and it's like that's easy stepping stone form and then there's the um there's a group of men that uh like I've even asked them I was like so are you you know how do you identify yourself like what's your do like are you by are you gay you know it's kind of usually my go-to answer I try not to over-compicate thing they go no I I like trans or like either there's a large group of people that like trans or just the whole idea of pretty girls but with boys and adamies and I think that uh well let me let me ask you about this do you think that it's that they are actually into pretty girls with boys and adamie or do you think it's that they're into women and having that and finding that very difficult and are going where they can expect lower standards that could be the case it could it could be because uh well I think there's a lot to this I think that you know I've noticed myself that a lot of people say that they are therefore them only or they will take mtf or ftm right and so they're basically trying to emulate female companionship they're like I will take the actual vagina though it is covered in hair and taking testosterone or I will take the the man who's dressing up like a woman it's I'm trying to approximate the benefits of feminine companionship in a world where male female relationships have become so strained that I don't know what to do anymore right um I was actually just recently talking with a guy who he wanted like a girlfriend type experience from me because he's been with us girl you um I don't know if he's ever been with a man before but if it has it was very limited what I'm getting right uh um his partner who he he loves and you know not his wife but long-term partner and she's regular normal woman but just has no they don't have any intimacy they don't have any they she's got no sex strife that no that that that passion is just it's just non-existent and their relationship and he's like that's what he's wanting and it's convenient it's convenient for him to get that as to get those emotions and have that experience as a you know as a human because we all crave that we all want to be you know loved and have somebody cuddle and snuggle you know have those intimate moments with but you know so he's I feel he's emulating that experience with the most convenient option for him right without spring from from that now there could be a lot of reasons maybe it's a uh it's like a buffer for you know like hey maybe this is maybe I do really like guys but because you know because of my upbringing and my family um I feel better about going with the guy that looks like a girl because it just it doesn't feel so um like he's breaking down uh like he's going against what he was taught as right and wrong from his family upbringing for something for that major I'm skeptical of that one I'll just I'll just share with you uh and uh if that's it like let me just get to make it well comfort him it's like oh I know I'm supposed to be with girls because that's what everybody tells me that I'm supposed I'm a boy so I'm supposed to be with a girl but I really like boys so this is my um in between because like here's my skepticism of it is that there's an understanding that if they were to bring around their cross-dresser girlfriend that this would meet at equal or greater approbation from the people whose judgment he supposedly fears right it's actually yeah it actually doesn't do that it's it's his own a pro it's his own sensation of you know am I am I in feminine companionship or not right well personally I now see I don't think it's about anyone on the outside world knowing that okay okay I think it's about I think it's an internal struggle in his own like he all right that makes sense and how he reconciles that to his own self all right that makes a lot sense that does I think so but the game is something speculation no I think I think I think I think that makes a lot of sense it's not it's not the outside judgment it's their own like am I doing the thing that I mean to do or am I doing something that you know strays from my own standards I don't have to guilt about it you know that's so you know it's just like addicts you know they they they're on they have their own rationale for you know they know what's right they know it's wrong you know but we're gonna figure out a way to make it okay in our own head would you would you say that you notice some disparity in um uh there uh it's what it does wait are some more interested in your cock than others and does that line up with any other pattern of behavior sometimes but uh that's the lesser that that's more of the exception of the norm um most guys um if I if I am dressed up um uh a handful I mean if I were to throw a arbitrary percentage of I'd say maybe five to ten percent are interested on just like you know I want to give you head while you're dressed up or something you know that otherwise they're like yeah I don't even care that's that's where my perception of it comes from so like what they're what they're interested in because if they're if they're actually drawn to the male thing then that's probably where they'd be drawn right if they're if they're if they're basically just trying to like they're trying to have a feminine personality take care of their cock then you know then then they're they're essentially trying to they're they're essentially trying to emulate the benefits of female companionship in that environment I know that there are other people who are like yeah what I want to do is I want to get taught by a tranny or something like that and that's a completely different category of action I think yeah yeah I agree yeah it's fascinating and so you would say maybe five ten percent of the people that you come into contact with are interested in your dick and the rest of them are just like no I want to fuck you like a woman yeah and that's my thing and do you think that um would you say that uh I think you already told me this but just what what percentage of the people that you're coming into contact with in the female persona are are identifying to you as gay versus identifying you or gay or by or versus they they tell you that they're straight men think about that for just a moment um because some not all encounters I necessarily ask um you know I'm not I'm not trying to do a psych profile on every single person that makes perfect sense I mean um however uh it does come up often so um well yeah there's so many just went off too it's you know that I think to give you a fair an honest answer on that I'd have to think about that moving forward thank you let me let me ask you this okay what what portion do you think that you could readily identify as because I see like on on Grindr I noticed that there's a lot of things that they are STR8 is dash whatever it is that they're trying to do right that that they're saying they're they're identifying themselves outwardly in the headline of the profile or in the bio that they're saying they're straight man who are for whatever reason you trying to use man for sex you know honestly yeah um yeah I think that's uh yeah I think you're kind of onto it there um just because they're saying they're straight if you're straight you're not going to be an author I think well yeah I'm actually not entirely certain of that right so like you know there's guys who there's guys who are not to the not to the amount that I see yeah well I think that that's probably fair too but you know there's there's a you know in in prison life for example okay there's guys who are in prison and they'll engage in homosexual behavior while they're in prison and then and then they'll come out and they do not return to it it's it's simply situational homosexuality for the sake of a lack of females and it seems to me I I witness a great deal of men complaining about sexual access to women that they for whatever reason whether whatever they tend to blame it on I try to tend to encourage them to you know try to work on themselves instead of blaming the women but whatever the case may be they find it impossible or very difficult to obtain satisfaction for women and I think that that my suspicion is and I can't say without certainty is that they're basically a lot of these guys who are on their reporting to be straight are basically responding to the same incentives as men in prison that they don't have access to women there's women all over the place but they don't have access to them and they have needs so they're going to get their needs met hmm okay yeah this is something that you probably haven't thought about a lot I'm thinking and it's fine with me or do I have you well yes no because I the culture of women has it has changed and shifted a lot yeah like I'm talking just in the heterocommunity and just the dating world and I mean okay I said I was very I said the last time before I was married I went on an actual actual date I mean early two you know early 2000s and now here I am is you know 2022 or whatever the hell year it was 2021 but I got the borst it's like I went back out there and I was like oh shit what the fuck is going on the women have become in a sense more there's greater promiscuity but that is actually not increasing the the sexual access for males to females right what's happening is that it's causing you know a smaller number of men to to you know have greater number of sex partners and it's actually leaving a lot of guys out in the cold yeah yeah and there's definitely this you know what I experienced a lot of obviously after a raft I got the borst after almost you know 13 14 years hard I was like I wasn't like jumping anything so of course I was like hey for you you know you know I'm going to much and I did and it was that hard like I literally just had to show up sometimes right I was even have the I girls just approached me like this but they they were women that were getting in the getting in fights over me at the bar I'm like this is great they're like no I talked to him I talked to him I'm like I mean I know I'm a good looking guy but I mean seriously this is this is outrageous and but the the sense of you know I deserve this and you know I deserve this sort of man or I almost entitlement you know like the whole okay I'll use the common one that's on around you know like makes six figures over six foot you know this and that and it's like all this this almost fairy tale criteria of the perfect man and they're not going to settle for anything else and everybody else is just a piece of fucking trash and you know it was really prevalent I mean it was it was very much a complex at least in my experience in my area of the country now and it was either just wanted to have sex or no no you know it was just nope I did it better I was you bet you know like I'm I'm a queen sort of thing and it was it was interesting this one word one way to put it and I think it's one girl I was on base and we got there and that's like let's get myself a drink we're on bar and you know and we're going to get myself another drink would you know what are you drinking now long we get your drink and she goes I can pay for now drinks I go like just defensively like wrap it out and I was like well I I'm sure you can I didn't think you couldn't I just wanted to be you know a gentleman and I you would drink or we're out on a date here right like I asked you out on a date like I I'm not okay you know it's like getting trouble for holding the door open or something I could do that what you think I can't do that and it's a real thing you know and I just I don't know it was wasn't expecting to walk about right man I go I just I'm just trying to be nice you know but so yeah I think um go ahead no no go ahead I I'm a little out of laws for words to myself I don't worry about it we the radio professional is trying to figure this out at the same time as you so if you lose your words don't worry about it I'm the one who's supposed to be able to pick it up and I'm attempting to and and failing apparently so I guess you know it here's what I noticed and you know we sort of began the second portion of this with it you know it seems to me that there's you know there's an element of our politics now that it takes up the mantle of where the defenders of this this community of sexual minorities and they're they're portraying it to the rest of the world that that there's a consensus opinion about everything and that these are actually just the objective truths that have always been and that anybody who does it who it disagreed aims to question the wisdom of what we're perpetrating against the children is a monster who actually is at war with these people it's been my experience in the course of these conversations that that's not the case that as a matter of fact the the gay community is actually largely skeptical of the trans community especially like the the the the FTM thing on Grindr and my experience but people actually react fairly negatively to that they have you know decidedly more mixed opinions about you know men it's definitely different social circles absolutely right you know but you know there's this there's this phenomenon going on where you know I think what what what what made you I think want to continue this conversation further was this this thing is being perpetrated on the kids and that's a very widely held view amongst gay men that that they are saying look you know I'm you know I'm part of I have an all lifestyle and you know I have this you know I am I'm gay but that doesn't mean that I want to go and try to force this on kids I don't want kids to be doing something that's categorically different like there's a recognition amongst gay men especially that and I think amongst gay women too that the trans thing is not the same thing as being gay that that's actually a completely categorically different phenomenon and that trying to associate them the two of them is actually not necessarily in the interest of gay people at all and that the people who are doing that they they have a generous that are actually at odds with the people that they claim to be defending and we see this very frequently with the lesbians I think it's they're much more outspoken of that there was a woman who's like this lesbian feminist activists who gave a lengthy talk at the heritage foundation of all places which is like a conservative think tank you know and she's like I never thought I'd be speaking to you people you know I you know but this is at a point where they're they're telling us that we have to accept them into female only spaces and all of these things and it's and it's actually very hostile and then they're facing all of the same you know penalties of political correctness that that conservative talk radio hosts and people in business have found when they find themselves on the wrong side of the LGBT lobby that they're actually getting silence and shut out and and threatened criminally in some cases for standing to for daring to speak out against these things and what what I have noticed is that while people are they they are often scared to have their names tied to any negative commentary about it but you know when you talk to them if you get them comfortable enough they they will acknowledge it like no like this is a completely different thing and and and it's and they're deeply skeptical of the wisdom especially when it comes to the kids yeah it's definitely very different it kind of makes you want to run and go you know kind of right now point your finger go see see that's what's up yeah see yeah it's it's been it it's been an eye opener for me you know you know you know being a radio my idea has taken a few turns over the years I've been doing this a long time and uh you know uh you know when I was a kid I was like you know the idea of like male homosexuality really revolted me like I thought it was I was really like grossed out by it like as soon as I learned about it and I was kind of like trained out of that say you know and then and then you know in my in my politics I was involved with the libertarians and I was like you know hey you know I don't want people button into my life why should I button into theirs you know that makes perfect sense to me let's these people do whatever they want you know and I think that what started to turn me right word was when I started to see things kind of spiraling out of control right that like oh this is actually the consequence of having no standards when we have no standards there bad things and so is a matter of fact now you know I think that that presents I think that that observation is becoming more evident to a lot of people and that you know the the the responsible social scientist is really compelled to do some thinking about this that like I said if you just tell gay men don't have sex well the the consequences of that are actually going to be catastrophic so responsible society has to make some some decisions about that but you know this idea that um love is love the the stupid catch phrase is that a thrown around about it and then and then we start applying that to you know 10 year olds who have three trans boyfriends you know that's actually you we actually can't tolerate that as a matter of fact that has to be completely cut off you can't allow it you have to threaten people with prison when they start trying to you know turn the kids into science experiments you know and how where where between telling gay men not to have sex and telling kids that they can have a trans boyfriend at 10 you know I don't know where that line is but we better start talking about it now because we don't you we can't allow this to continue right it's one of those what's that was box it's yeah well I'll tell you everybody anything else that you want to say I will I will hear it I think if if not I will I think we've gotten a lot done today and I'll end the call unless you want to continue yeah yeah um just two uh couple quick things here yeah um I guess one is just kind of a little bit about me yeah I just want you and the listeners uh to know that um I'm actually I I'm not uh I'm not I don't consider myself Republican or Democrat I don't I don't have any from putting on any political party uh I I just kind of walk around passing I use common sense and um sometimes you know they weave in and out so I guess I'm a little purple and you know in some regards but uh I just want to make that clear um for whatever it's worth um and I guess uh after that um you know I just uh I can tell my kids I just want people to think themselves you know don't follow the trend don't follow it's you know I don't know don't do things for clout you know glory and recognition and path on the back but do it because it's that's what's morally right and that's what's gonna be long-standing to help us in the long run as a society you know well you know I think that adds value to what you're saying okay because you know one of the things that you said to me is that you're not coming at this from an ideological angle you not purporting to be an expert on the subject matter and I think for a moment there you you question whether that you know I think that I think there's I think with some propriety you question whether you should be speaking up on a subject that you're not necessarily an expert in but you know what it's actually pretty important for people like you to speak up okay because because the people who purport to be experts a lot of times are ideologically driven they have agendas and that's why they cut that's why they pursue a course that allows them to call themselves experts and when normal people are like what you're saying is completely preposterous and I know that without being an expert that blows the lid off the whole entire thing doesn't it yeah yeah it's I don't leave the evidence you know I don't I don't have a I don't have an ending I just you know I don't I don't have a point that I'm trying to stack up things to prove I'm just doing it for what it is and that's a very decent thing for you to do and I'm glad that you did it I'm really glad that we continued this conversation and I'm and I'm very grateful to you and uh well thanks for having me on and I appreciate the you know again being able to have a voice because you know I'm just never day joke you know nothing special to see here but um you know it's a small voice for now but if I have my way more people are gonna listen to these conversations in the future and what you're doing I think is very important and I'm grateful for it yeah well hopefully so at least if anything if if it's just for both stop that would make me happy it's going to have that effect I promise friend all right all right thank you very much I'll I'll say I'll say goodbye to offline thank you very much all right good night take care thank you all right so that is the call and I am I think that those of you who listen to that entire thing you probably share my surprise at what transpired there especially in the second portion of it right you know there's this narrative that we're fed if you watch MSNBC you watch CNN you read the New York Times Washington Post daily beast whatever it may be you try to keep your ear to left wing media what you hear is that this orthodoxy of the LGBT P nonsense is you know it's universally accepted over there and everybody who disagrees with them is some kind of right wing religious fanatic well you know this cross dresser switch hitter guy probably doesn't fit that mold and he's skeptical of it too and he's not the only one as part of what made me want to have these conversations on the recordings right I've mentioned before that before I decided to start doing this I talked to a lot of people privately and the conversations I had were pretty interesting ones but I wasn't I didn't want to go through the process of being like hey can I put you on recording for a podcast I was trying to you know try to understand what's going on it's kind of fortunate that that's the case because some of those conversations are pretty interesting but as you can see as you're beginning to see anyway it's it's possible to get new ones and so I've been spending a lot of time there I mean I if you follow my telegram channel which it's easier to do if you have a real phone if you have an Apple device that they don't the Apple Corporation decides you're allowed to talk to but if you have like an Android phone or you use it on the PC or use the web browser version you can follow me on telegram it's at follow Chris I think I have to make another telegram channel for these I got like a whole new branding I'm working on for these conversations and ones like it okay I'm not just it's and not just to grind your stuff but I'm looking for other ways to get people to talk to me and I'll take your suggestions on those at Christopher Cantwell.net slash contact and if you guys want to call in by the way two on seven six eight one four three three the phone lines are lit the phone lines are available I'll take a couple of calls if you guys don't call in before one I am then I'll wrap it up that gives you about seven minutes but don't wait seven minutes dial the phone if you want to get on the air this is interesting stuff in my book you know to go out and talk to people who would not talk to me in other contexts and I say to them hey I'm I want to interview you for a podcast if I tell you who I am I've got a reputation that's going to interfere with what you say I just want to talk to you naturally and you know and I'll treat you with the utmost respect is basically what I tell them now I strike out more often than not it takes me a long time to try to get an interview sometimes sometimes I turn that app on and boom somebody's on the phone and other times you know I'm at it until three four o'clock in the morning guys send me cockpicks and I'm like hey you know I'm not trying to see your dick I'm trying to talk to you you know you'd be kind of unpleasant but I think it pays off in the end and if I can go would just get people to talk to me about I don't care what it is you know I you know I was thinking about you know one of the things I had in my mind I've been trying to take some pictures lately I'm not particularly good at this and I don't have a great camera I've got like camera phone whatever the camera that I use the webcam for the computer and so I'm like you know I got a sort of like an interest in photography say that is not very well informed I was like I should just go start trying to talk to photographers right go ask you all about photography and maybe I'll try to ask you about photography in a setting where like nobody's going to bring this back to your name and you could tell me all the things about photography that you don't want tied to your professional reputation say and then I think as a potential to be pretty interesting in a variety of context and so I'm not going to mention the the brand names that I have that I'm working on for that just yet I gotta kind of make some strategic decisions about that but we'll see what happens and I think it's going to be really interesting call your on the radical agenda what's your agenda I don't think anybody's looking up at this guy because they're trying to emulate female companionship because there's nothing female or feminine about him well I think that when you're listening to him on that recording there's not but I mean the the point of the discussion is that he goes out on this you know sex app and he's taken pictures of himself and women's clothing and he's marketing himself as a cross-trustor okay and so like don't get me wrong I don't think that what people are doing is a heterosexual act by having sex with a man who happens to have some feminine clothing on but what I think is happening the theory that I'm working on here is that there's a phenomenon on Grindr which I've spoken to with pretty much everybody that I talked to about that platform where there's a lot of people on there who are purporting to be straight men okay now you could whatever you want to say about well at what point demand turns in his right to call himself a straight man you know that's a different topic of conversation you know there's you know social scientists will say that there's a difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior and and knowing what I know about you know prison sexual behavior that there's there's you know people who engage in homosexual behavior while they're in prison situation and then when they get out they don't go back to it it seems to me that that's a that's a real thing that people will deprive of access to females see they'll resort to sex with man and then they'll go back to females when the opportunity presents well we actually see in society right now there's a lot of guys who are screaming their heads off that they can't get laid and what are they doing they're going on Grindr and they're looking for more you know they're not seeking masculine men they're seeking feminine you know facsimiles or whatever you know feminine sign of lacrims habit whatever term you want to use for fake right they're seeking fake women and I think that's what is he's describing because if you've got a site if you talk to gay men who are gay men who are who are exclusively gay men what they want is masculine men okay they don't actually want cross-dressers and stuff so what what you see with this guy is he says oh I go on there and I've got two profiles I got one where I'm a masculine man and I got one where I'm a cross-dresser and I get infinitely more attention on the cross-dresser profile well what's happening is there's a bunch of people who actually prefer women to men who are like oh well you know what because women are a pain in the ass and I'm striking out with them left and right I'm gonna go and try to approximate the benefits of female companionship that's the theory and I'll take your thoughts on it okay well let me ask you this what part if they think women like biological women real women are what are they wanting because you know like men heterosexual men going out I don't think they're gonna get I don't know can I say push you on here you could say push a cock fuck shit bitch cunt nigger kike and just whatever you say just do just don't mention do do go ahead okay uh uh uh uh uh my men the heterosexual men are seeking women they want pussy okay I mean so nobody's seeking think they're gonna get some pussy from this dude well I think that I think you can pass well I don't think that he passes either but that's at the point that I make it okay so like you know it when a guy goes and turns on Port Hobb and starts playing with his penis is he looking for pussy no he's looking to come right so like it's the same idea he's he's they're they're basically massed you know it's masturbating with a man is you know the idea here and I'm not saying that this is an appropriate course of behavior I'm actually saying it's like a major problem that needs to be addressed as part of the reason I'm trying to analyze it right but that's what I think is literally happening you know if you see guys you know you think about a situation where I I use the analogy of prison because I think it's an apt one okay guys are in prison they're like okay there's no women around I'll have sex with men and then I get out and I'm gone okay now like in certain you know social circles in prison it's acceptable if you're the top or whatever but if you're the receiving partner like you know gangs will jump you out or whatever say okay it's a completely different category of phenomenon if you're if you're you know receiving okay now the and so there's like some acknowledgement of this and you know prison social circles not not in the ones I traveled in Matt Hale certainly wouldn't approve but you know the I think that that's that's a recognized thing that occurs okay so you come out into the real world and okay fine there's not a concrete wall and a bunch of steel between you and the females but there's there's a cultural barrier that you know has people screaming their heads off that they can't get why would we be surprised that men would respond to the same exact incentives just without the concrete wall there I don't think there's any reason to be surprised by that at all and so if they're looking for if feminine looking people to take care of their sexual impulses I think that that's that's the theory now you know are they looking for pussy or they looking for somebody to come with well you know guys are going seeking blow jobs from women in bars are they looking for pussy no they're looking for mouths right and they're probably looking for mouths with this guy too yeah well I mean that's where the you said it because my brother and I were just talking about we don't like blow jobs but we knew the one of us have ever been into that but I who knows that people want but I mean I just why is it not hard why is it hard for men to hook up with women okay I'm an older man I'm 55 years old and women are still chasing me I don't understand them what's the what's the problem well part of female companionship or they not getting if they're not getting the sex other than oral sex what is it what aspect of female companionship are they getting and why is it so hard for them to get from a woman well I think that there's an infinite I don't think that there's a simple answer to that question that we're going to get to before the end of the show today but I mean you know I think a lot of it is their own personal bullshit here's here's one okay look at as consequence going on this app and I've said before what I what I've done is I've actually uploaded real photos of myself where I'm AI altering the the face okay and so like I'm getting hit on by guys all of the time okay and you know a grant that I'm not gay so it's more uncomfortable for me that it is for people who are into getting hit on by guys but like you know you want to know what it's like to be you want to know what it's like to be hit on by men all the time go spend some time on Grindr you'll realize it's it's an unpleasant experience like I think a lot of guys think oh well you know I love it when women hit on me so I don't know why women aren't happy when men are hitting on them go get hit on by men it's a completely different experience and so like you know when I look at people complaining about it and I'll use Jason Kessler as the most notable example while making the point that it's really not about Jason Kessler it's just you know he's the he's the annoyance that keeps on coming across my radar you know he's just talking about like oh I go after these women on the dating sites and they don't respond to me or whatever whatever and I'm like well you're Jason Kessler you do all the things that Jason Kessler does it's no wonder that you know women don't want to have sex with you but you know other guys who are not Jason Kessler have other problems too okay but like you know maybe it's their approach maybe they just don't know how to talk to people if you're if you're going on telegram and screaming about how women suck and then you're confused about why they won't fuck you like I can't imagine that your approach is very good you know there's a lot of different reasons for it a lot of guys around a shape and a lot of guys have money problems and you know there's the all-banner of cultural things going on okay you know I personally like I'm like avoiding women right now you know like I like I don't like I am in a situation where the type of woman who would date me with my social status like I don't I don't want to get I don't want to become obligated to her and I feel bad about using women for sex okay so I'm not actually like not you know I'm not in the dating market right now okay so I don't really know everything that's going on I've been in prison for three fucking years before that and so you know I might not be in the best position to say I think COVID probably screwed a lot of shit up but you know whatever it is it's causing these problems what you what the what the observable phenomenon is is the complaints right the manner screaming I can't get laid I can't it's not even that I can't get laid it's that they can't find a they can't find a suitable partner say okay that's actually the war common complaint that I hear that a lot of the guys who I hear complaining about this they're not necessarily looking for like you know they're not looking for a fucking holster stick to cock in what they're looking for is a wife and reasonably so and they're like you know either the women that they're observing are unsuitable for that purpose or you know or they can't get the women that they want to respond to them you know and so like I try to give people you know advice on meeting people and stuff like that to the extent that I can but the observable phenomenon is the complaint they they're saying for whatever reason they do not believe that they can get sexual access they do not believe that they can obtain the gratification that they seek and if that is happening it's on on a grand enough level then when you start seeing 10 15% of the men who are on a gay sex app are telling you that they're straight when you're starting to see that the people who dress up like women get more attention on the gay sex app than the people who dress up like men well you know there's something going on there right the people on there who are the the people who are on that app were pursuing those people they're attracted to a feminine appearance at the very least and so that's whether or not whether or not I've got the right theory is a is a different question but it's certainly an interesting thing that I don't think that we're getting much from on the so from out of the social sciences okay um let me give an example unless you have other colors that you want to get to no you're the only person on hold no no you're you're the only person on and they've they've forfeited their opportunity at this point I'm going to finish with you and I'm going to wrap up but you can take your time go ahead okay my nephew is married to a trans of a woman who did now male okay okay um I think that's because it's she tried to force herself on him by manipulating him since he was when he first got together excuse me just so I can clarify I just I'm sorry you say a woman who is now male you're talking about a a biological female who now identifies as a male and takes male hormones yes after they got married okay and before they were married she basically threatened to kill herself as he didn't go out with her and so he kind of got trapped into that and I think the reason she became that because I know you talked about this sort of a this guy um I think she's gay and she is responding to him and trying to do whatever to make him attracted to him does that make sense well that's interesting you you believe that the that the male in the relationship is a homosexual and that the female is taking on a masculine appearance to to keep him right now she's not taking on that she's taking on a dick um it's probably like a baby dick which would make me puke to thought of that but she's trying to like become a physical man um and I think she's trying to become what he wants and I mean that's like women I mean this is where I'm confused about what what what is the value of female companionship I mean I hate to be an asshole about it but when they can do things like what she's doing I mean you can blame him but she's also being predatory um because I'm sure she knew it I mean I I suspected it but um you know what I'm saying it's very manipulative maybe on both parts but I see her as kind of like a predator I mean what what other than the fact that he's still tolerating his woman leads you to believe that he might be a homosexual um I don't I don't know I mean I I'm known him since 1989 how many years of baby so um I just always thought that okay um well I guess it's you know I I don't know enough about the individuals involved in the story to to speculate on it much but what I could say is that I think that what you're describing is in some part the predictable consequence of breaking down all of the fucking norms right that like you know part of the reason that I think men are more comfortable now you know going on this app and seeking out you know companionship with men whether they whether they appear feminine or not is because there's you know there's been this breakdown of the stigma of doing that right that it's there's nothing actually wrong with this whether or not you want your friends to find out is another question but you know that the cultural attitude is there's nothing wrong with being gay and if you're just going and you know trying it on for size that that's not something that you need to go to confession for on Sunday or whatever like that's that's the prevailing attitude I I think in society and so when you break down the norms and you break down the stigmas then you know behaviors become acceptable and then people go try things on and then if you go try it on then you're like oh well you know what it feels really good when there's a mouth on my penis and actually it you know it actually feels good when it's you know whoever the fuck is doing it right you know I'm saying so like they'll follow that incentive structure straight to the straight to the point where they're where they're telling you that they're gay I have another call that I published on the telegram channel which I haven't played on the show yet where the guy says you know I said are you gay it says why identify as gay so you identify as gay what is that a difference between being gay and identifying as gay and he's like well you know as married to a woman for a long time I got divorced and then I decided to be gay well that's not what we hear from the rainbow mafia is it the rainbow mafia tells us that nobody has any choice in this and trying to you know trying to slow down the flood of propaganda is just a way to you know try to hide make these people hide no no no no no they understand full well what they're doing that actually you can propagandaize people into this lifestyle that you can actually move people along that spectrum towards that behavior and that's why they're trying to do it younger and younger with the kids right they understand very well that this is not some random fluke it's not some arbitrary thing that that that the environmental factors contribute to the sexual behavior and ultimately to the sexual orientation and they're trying to engineer that in a non reproductive direction because they're genociding us right they're trying to make us no longer exist and you know they'd love to kill us all if they could but you know it's a little it's a little messy and expensive so you know they'll kill some people and they'll set criminals who sat on the street and then they'll get you into a war and then they'll give you birth control and then they'll encourage you to be gay and that's what they're doing and it's working out spectacularly I think for them I don't know like when I like when I know people were gay I'm a I can't want to go back because you were talking about the sexual just your sexual gratification I cannot and like I can't get off just or even a rouse or an erection without a fantasy or without or at least a fantasy or an actual person a fantasy if I don't have an actual person so I don't know what it's not like it's a substitute I have to and then I have to focus on it like obsessively like even if it's masturbation I have to obsessively focus on it so I don't I just don't see how sex can be all the substitution you're in the stuff I think that your experience is not entirely unique but I'll I'll I'll inform you that it's not universal I mean I get erections from no reason at all that become distractions while I'm trying to do non-sexual things right and I think that I'm I'm certainly not the only one who has that who has that phenomenon right and then of course you know now we've got viagra and everything else right so I mean if guys are on you know guys are on HRT pop and viagras you know they're they can they can turn their dick on it off like a light switch right and so you know I think that that's that's part of it as well okay I mean I just I don't know I'm I just see the case you were singing it's mostly young women and I just think it's men are rejecting them it seems like you think it's the other way around well what I said to him about young cast or what what I said about young women to the guy on the phone was that you know they're they're primarily the the demographic that's I was referring to his Gallup poll where Gen Z women 30% of them are reporting to be LGBT which is complete fucking nonsense when you look at the breakdown of it but like you know there they they are a conspicuously growing portion of this you know sexual minority alliance that they're building that they're giving these these young white girls basically alternative sexual identities and and it's not and it's not something that they're acting on for the most part they're just saying I'm bisexual pansexual whatever nonsense because they think that's trendy and they can escape the white cis hetero patriarchy nonsense right that's what I that's what I think to him about that as far as you know you know Jason Kessler and people who are making similar complaints to Jason Kessler I think that that's fundamentally a different phenomenon well I mean as like the minute my friend might talk about this a lot not just because I'm my nephew and stuff but our experience all of us agree that women are the ones who pursued us and I mean I read so I can't relate to like Jason Kessler's problem there's something wrong with him like he's got him into a little monster something he does he obviously is dealing with asperger's or some kind of autism spectrum thing is obviously going on with him and it and probably has comorbid conditions on top of that I imagine yeah so that's probably his problem because he's not he's not a hideously unattractive man but he's not so something else is going on that's not even like related to this but about I was getting at it because with all the women I think but people getting more comfortable with male homosexuality in particular because I am the lesbians I know like they're not really lesbians they're heterosexual women but they just kind of like lie about it I don't I'm like they're trying to dupe the gay men or you dupe men into it or something so I mean I guess my problem has never been like getting other people interested in these getting like how do I choose them and who are all the these people are attracted to me so I don't really understand that you know I think that one of the one of the one of the advice pieces of advice that I give to people is like you know part of the reason that Jason Kessler has the problems that he has is that Jason Kessler attempts to be completely like immersed in his political shit right he's like oh I go to work and I scream about white nationalism on the internet and girls are not trying to fuck me and I'm like that's because you're not going out and meeting women right you're going on dating apps and sending the messages and I imagine that all of its messages are like hey what's up right and they're like yeah I've seen some I've seen people tell me what's up a hundred times today fuck you I'm moving on to the next one right you know but you know if you're if I think that a lot of it is that you know I've pursued a lot of women and had some you know success in my pursuits but I think that the majority of women that I've stayed with for any period of time have actually it mirrors your experience that they're women who who approached me now let's saying that happens all the time but it's happened more than once and so you know if people are not putting themselves out in social situations or the circumstances of their life are not putting them into social situations where they're coming into contact with eligible females I think that that you know and I think that's a more and more common occurrence now is you know especially after COVID I think that people are not putting themselves in situations where they're going to have those interactions and that probably leads to a lot of this. Okay I guess I mean I still think that we're seeing that you're usually like younger women I think it's men or reject the boys or rejecting them and also you know I don't know if you've raised any children or anything like that but girls are almost like sexualized automatically by the by the nature of their bodies but boys are not interested and I think little girls are finding I'm like pretty good and like you talked about the 10-year-olds those boys are not interested in them and then so they're finding out well that they like male companionships so they're trying to emulate I think it's kind of like the opposite of I mean it could be both at the same time but it just seems the opposite to me. I totally failed to follow what you're saying you're saying the boys are not interested in sex. Well I don't take a pre-pubescent boy is. Well not a pre-pubescent. The reason I asked you if you'd hurt. You're saying that the girls are okay so the girls are sexualized pre-pubescent and the boys are not until after puberty is that the point that you're making? Yeah that's why I asked you if you'd raised any I have not. He raised me on okay then you would see a difference I mean like you'll see like a little girl so go tee tee and put one cover her last cover my mouth with one hand and then her pussy with the other one and this is the pre-pubescent girl happens all the time or you can find the little girl with her hand up herself and to her her diaper okay and you kind of have to keep them from attacking the boys. Right. That's like when I first got in the school I got like the girls who chased me so much as like glittered my first day in school I got in the school bus and I had to hide under the seat to keep the feeling inside attack from the little girl so they had to make different arranges for my transportation and then when I got into school they would chase me all all recesses all I did is run from these girls the whole time so I'm saying when they realize you know these guys don't want to hang out with them they don't want to they're not interested they don't know anything about sex. I guess the pre-pubescent experience that you're describing I guess I can I probably as I think about it there's some relation that I can make to it you know I had like girls had a crush on me before I was thought that being into girls was cool right that I still thought they had cooties was the word that we used in my in my elementary school. Yeah we did the same you know and so like you know but then like as soon as I hit puberty then I was running around trying to fuck everything that walked and like and and then and then they were running away from me because I was a monster and so that that tends to cloud my my my memory of what happened prior right and so you know and you know don't I mean I I did pretty well as a teenager as far as that goes you know I well did pretty well as in I numerically I I I racked up a body count when I was a teenager say I don't know if I want to say I was doing well because it probably wasn't a good idea but felt really good you were doing well but not right yeah I it felt pretty good I was having a good time for sure um and so you know I guess you know I I don't know man I'll tell you what I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap up the call anything else you want to get out there before I let you go. No I think I covered it um but I just just just I think the target is pre-pubescent boys they're trying to say and it's not working and I can sexualizing the pre-pubescent boys and the girls are trying to be what the boys want that's that's my perception. All right thank you very much for the call my friend I appreciate it and so that's uh that's gonna be the end of the uh the phones there and you know I uh I don't know I think we got some figuring out to do here look like I said to him I've got a theory here I think that and it's obvious that the propaganda exists for a reason I think the Russian Federation made a very wise decision to ban propagandaizing this lifestyle because I think that's what you're seeing I think that you they're propagandizing it they're making it socially acceptable they're making it more and more difficult for there to be you know opposite sex relations they're making it more and more difficult to raise a family and so people are going in that direction you know and that's a sad and tragic thing and nobody's trying to understand it I don't think I don't think that almost anybody's trying to figure that out there's people who are like yeah this is great oh we're just we're moving forward into the future when there's not all this stigma all your religious superstition nonsense preventing people from expressing their love right that's the mainstream narrative and then you know you have this other narrative I think that it's like okay well you know the people who are doing that over there they're those people and you know we're over here and these are these people and I'm not so sure that that's entirely the case okay that guy it probably has voted Republican more often than uh then he'd want to admit publicly uh the people that I've spoken to are not on board with the trans thing you know they're deeply skeptical of that as a matter of fact they're not on board with every left wing program that you know comes out some of them are and so these are interesting conversations and I'm going to keep on having them and we're going to rebrand because I don't want to debase the radical agenda this is not the radical agenda the radical agenda is I do an opening monologue I read some news I take some calls maybe it's time will come when you know we can start having people call into the show regularly again maybe their time will come when we have an audience that's big enough and has enough money to actually pay me to do the show but with that's none of those circumstances are met now so the radical agenda for now will come to a conclusion of stage six we'll see if a stage seven emerges in the future but there's no plans to announce that I will tell you in the near future what we're going to do with the branding on the new content but the idea here is going to be it's not just grind or but the idea here is going to be get me into conversations with other people I'm going to go out and proactively seek the conversations instead of waiting for them to call the phone lines because waiting for them to call the phone lines ain't working and I think that we're going to have a lot of interesting discussions that way if you have suggestions on how I might go out and get on the phone with those people or who what places I might go to seek and curate these guests I'll be interested to know and I'll take your counsel on that at CRISPRCatwell.net slash contact and of course you know like I said the reason a radical agenda is going away it's not just that the phones are dead it's because people don't pay we got zero super chats tonight on Odyssey you know that was a pretty good three hour phone call that actually put a bunch of effort into if anybody cares to pay for this content you know I hope you will CRISPRCatwell.net slash donate we'll tell you how to do that you can buy radical agenda merch and since we're not announcing stage seven there's a good chance that there's never going to be anymore at surrealpolitics.com slash shop surrealpolitics.com slash shop will get you to the radical agenda merch if you want to buy what's left of it who knows if you'll ever have an opportunity to buy that stuff again we got hats and t-shirts hoodies mouse pads that kind of thing um gives and go.com slash spm like surrealpolitics media the cash app is edgy Chris and all my QR codes and the all the crypto keys all right CRISPR can't well that net slash donate and I I know how to use that crypto stuff pretty pretty smoothly so do please help finance the production we're not going anywhere we've still got the surrealpolitics.com network we're still working on that we're still going to be doing surrealpolitics Monday and Wednesday and there's going to be exciting things to come and I look forward to that journey with all of you and we'll be back Monday for surrealpolitics Wednesday for the surrealpolitics member show and then back here once again Friday but radical agenda soon to be concluded at the best weekend with the ones you love that's it it's over then we organized the death squads for the people who wrecked America you know what do you call people you can't call to enemies and if we want to divide our society into arms camps of enmity all we have to do is keep doing what we're doing. A radical agenda of the event has turned into an opportunity for the left to push a racial and radical agenda implementing their radical agenda is the only thing they care about their bad actions what they want to do here is ram their radical agenda down your throat. This is great Americans he's a people that want to see great things that they got to you know they try and build a blanket one of a radical agenda it's not a radical agenda let's go the second moment